MKII Meaning?

[Sigmania]

I am just now realized what MKII may mean.

First, it has been established that MKII is synonymous with "Mark II". And it was stamped as VII for "Vintage Mark II" in 1983-1987 or so on single coil pickups.

When you translate the catalogs in 1983/84 you see that MKII/Mark II is VII.

What I am now realizing is that it may mean no. 2 or “second". As in send tier. As in not the top pickup in a line, but the one below that the first position.

As in "B" like the original LS,?ST and SS pickups which were simply called "A" and "B". Same with the early ST pick guard assemblies.

And when the ceramics came along I guess we got into 3rd and 4th tier (MK3, MK4).

Interesting theory.

 

[Sigmania]

As evidence in furtherance of that theory, note that Vintage MKII TE pickups are marked "B". Higher level models got the “A” marked pickups.

1982 catalog

 

[Sigmania]

And on basses perhaps:

Hard Puncher pickup markings??

 

[Sigmania]

All of this as a consequence of looking at Silver Star pickups for someone.

Silver Star Pickups

Never know where a puzzle piece will come from.

 

[Sigmania]

Interestingly, “Mark Twain” means the same thing.

 

[Sigmania]

Also note that you can have pickups above what would be the “A” position if it’s a different manufacturer. We see this a lot early on where DiMarzio pickups were above LS-A, ST-A or SS-A pickups. And even Seymour Duncan above DiMarzio in the LS150 and LS200.

So it is number 2 within a single manufacturer’s line.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

TBH I was a bit surprised that this wasn't obvious to you. Admittedly, it isn't intuitive - the Spitfire Mk I through Mk 24 was a series of performance improvements, Germany's GM subsidiary Opel went through the alphabet with their facelift models.... and I'm at a loss currently remembering a product where "successor" equals "downgrade". . But looking at Japanese pickups produced at the same time, widespread perception (=subjective) seems to be that they had jumped the shark somewhere in the early 80s.

I'm also not sure if that was the intention in any way, it looks like the "higher" model designators usually come with hotter coils = more wire = more expensive. Hotter pickups was what the market was asking for, or at least what one could be easily made to think when observing the 80s guitar market, and it isn't easy to find the truth between physics, production costs and all the pickup voodoo defining the actual retail prices.

Sure, scatter-wound coils increase capacitance and that changes the sound and unless you have a CNC coil-winding machine doing the Abigail Ybarra magic for you, this has to be done manually. I think there are not many ways to make a pickup cheaper - the most cost intensive parts were likely the labor, the coil wire type and amount and the magnets, probably in that order. So the Japanese Abigail Ybarras were definitely a true cost factor.

Particularly at a time when labor just got expensive and the exchange rates really bad for export-dependent businesses in Japan. If you look at other companies at the time, that's the point where they all seem to have abandoned their ambitious pickup research projects and the Spinex, DryZ or braided wire shielded L and VHs and whatnot disappeared or suffered downgrades, again, probably mostly in people's perception because the wire looked cheaper.

 

[Sigmania]

It wasn’t obvious because I’ve never seen anything called a Mark 1.

When you look at the pickups of the 90s and 2000s there are MK2. I haven’t noticed much else.

Now I’m rethinking the Keiyo thing. There were clearly two different models. The hotter one is likely what was called an MKII.

So no it wasn’t obvious. Had it been someone else would have said it.

In fact, it was only very recently that I think Voidoid56 or settebello proposed that VII was MKII.

When I first joined this forum half the guys were calling these MK eleven. Lol. So it’s not obvious.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

When I first joined this forum half the guys were calling these MK eleven. Lol. So it’s not obvious.

Yeah I think "Mark something" is a British thing and looking at pickups, there is so little to derive any differences from besides appearance and their super cool names.

I'd also be curious to see what the actual difference between, let's say "E", "U" and "VII" or TE-A and TE-B is (I guess we all are). Trouble is, nobody is keen on dissecting the hard to obtain better models, or even capable (=having the equipment) of understanding all of the differences, if there are any.

 

[Sigmania]

Well, now that there is a focus on it we can start to unpack the differences.

The names TOKAI used has evolved.

Initially it was A/B then Vintage/Vintage MKII.

In positioning of the line, VII pickups fill the role of U pickups with the DiMarzio VS-1 positioned above what was The A/ E, re named (?) V or Vintage in model year 1984.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Also, it depends so much on the expectations whether or not a pickup is deemed "better" or "worse". IIRC the tide of expectations in the mid-80s may have been still at the peak of "overwound" because "vintage-correct" didn't cater for the most popular music styles, so these things may seem strange from today's perspective.

 

[Sigmania]

Also, we have tools now that folks in the past did not.

We have translators and the internet.

It was not long ago when I started scanning and translating catalogs on here. Before that there was nothing. Just blurry catalogs posted on line that no one could reliably translate.

So this is all new and evolving now.

 

[Sigmania]

Also, it depends so much on the expectations whether or not a pickup is deemed "better" or "worse". IIRC the tide of expectations in the mid-80s may have been still at the peak of "overwound" because "vintage-correct" didn't cater for the most popular music styles, so these things may seem strange from today's perspective.

Yeah. I don’t mean to imply that one is better. Tokai has done that by naming things A/B or MKII. I personally see them as different. But I think we could agree that MK3 and MK4 are inferior to more expensive offerings.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

In positioning of the line, V pickups fill the role of U pickups with the VS-1 positioned above what was The A/ E, re named (?) V or Vintage in model year 1984.

I gotta memorize this sentence. Then next time I'm using a train or plane I just abruptly yell that at people wanting to take the seat next to me. But yeah, that's what it looks like, they jumbled a lot of names around for what looks like the same pickups a lot (and so did Greco and Fernandes).

But I think we could agree that MK3 and MK4 are inferior to more expensive offerings.

I only unraveled the single-coils name chaos for me so far, I know nothing about the humbuckers yet.

 

[Sigmania]

If you start looking at the single coils, and I have not done this yet since I posted this, but by the early 90s the pickups change to ones with what look like cheaper construction than vintage pickups. Stuff like the VOS1, etc. I bet if you look through catalogs you will eventually see a single coil called an MK3 or MK4.

 

[Sigmania]

Bingo...

First thing I looked at in 1985.

MK3. These would be ceramic single coils

 

[Sigmania]

So by 1985 the Vintage/Classic single coil line was:

DiMarzio VS-1
Vintage
Vintage MKII
Vintage MKIII

Note that they never say MKI

 

[Sigmania]

And here is an example of why I said it was not obvious what MKII means.

Look at this 2010 catalog and the pickups in these LS models.

Notice that there are MKII in fairly expensive guitars, LS260.

And then above that it jumps to Duncans in the LS420.

Where is the MKI ??

Everything from LS92 up to LS260 all get the MKII. Odd isn't it?

The only thing I see called an MKI is a single coil P90.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Ah yes, those... I have to admit I wasn't very interested in the budget models beyond the ST42 (which lacks almost nothing). Interestingly, the TST series doesn't even have a "budget" model in the 1984 catalog, then it re-appears as TST40 (2000JPY less) in 1985... with ceramic magnets.

I don't want to condemn ceramic SC pickups as a whole but if you want to save on wire and magnet slugs and still have decent output voltage from a pickup, ceramic is the way but the sound is...erm..different. The question is if that's what the MKIII pickups are like but yes, my expectations take a dive when I see the bar on a pickup.

Everything from LS92 up to LS260 all get the MKII. Odd isn't it?

Sure, particularly given the nature of that pickup. But that's "modern" Tokai, maybe with a different paradigm on cost-cutting in general and on LP models in particular, or some bean counter (re-)discovered that it's cheaper to have the same pickups made for half of the guitars than 2 different types... who knows.

 

[Sigmania]

What I have discovered is that the puzzle pieces we are often looking for in unlocking some of these mysteries are in plain sight and associated with guitars we are 'not very interested in'.

When I started this probing and was asking questions I was repeatedly referred to Peter's book for this or that. But I didn't and still don't own Peter's book.

And once you get past 1985 it was as if you went off the edge of the world into the unkown. The abyss.

What unlocked it for me was Voidoid56 sharing his pot dating observations. That got me past 1985 when the serial numbers change.

Again, these are guitars and a period few cared about with the exception of bluejeannot, settebello, eborej and a handful of others.

Then you get into body construction and HSS bodies and 01xxxx serial numbers and suddenly you are staring at the biggest mystery of all with Tokai that absolutely no one was talking about, Fender production.

So you have to look at these overlooked models to unpack the other stuff. It is all entwined.