Hard Puncher pickup markings??

[Voidoid56]

Ok, so right now I'm working on two basically identical Hard Punchers. They're both TPB-50G models out of the 1985 catalog, with gold hardware (G), rosewood fretboards and solid paint finishes (i e incl painted neck), one black (ABR) and one in Snow White (ASWR). The serials are 111158 (black) and 114755 (white), the latter has an 11 11 (no divider) body stamp, while the black one (infuriatingly) has had the month number partly painted over, leaving only = 2 visible. No neck stamps visible on the painted necks.

I don't normally pop P-bass pickups off the foam blocks they rest on. They're usually dried out, hard and stuck to the pickups, and prying them off seems a bit risky with old brittle cable and solder joints. But the ones in the black bass just came off when I lifted the pup out of the cavity. So I noticed that it has letter stamps on the bottom flatwork.






It's not exactly clear, but it looks like S B on one bobbin, N B on the other?

Since I've never seen this before, my first thought was that the pickup was a replacement. But then I checked the pics I took while working the white one (which I had already finished), and lo and behold, you can just make out an S and a possibly a C on one of the bobbins of that one as well. Never had the foam blocks off, so I don't have better pics right now.



There are other differences as well. The white one's pickup has (dark) grey bobbins and the older-style black and blue plastic-insulated wired, while the black one's has the later black and white cloth-covered wires and black bobbins, which is what I'd expect in a 1985 Tokai Fender copy. Oddly, the one with the older-looking pickup has the higher serial number.
The meaning? Magnet polarity, North vs South? Not too unlikely. B seemed like it could line up with A and B pickups sets in ST's, but then the other is apparently marked C..?

I did a bit of googling, but so far I've seen only unmarked PB/TPB pickups. I'm pretty clueless when it comes to bass pickups, so before I bite the bullet and take the white one apart again and pry the pickups off the foam: is this something we've seen before?

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I wish I could be of any assistance but even scouring the webz for some images seems to be quite hopeless. :/. I found whopping 2 images of Hard Puncher pickups, both w/o stamps:





Looks like you gifted yourself with yet another first class mystery deluxe!

 

[Sigmania]

Homer, what years are those two from?

The two Voidoid56 posted are from 1984/85.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

The bottom pic with the blue/black leads is a spaghetti logo bass, the other one is unknown. Bass players seem to be less obsessed with the exact year, which makes this even harder. Here's one sold with the usual "from the 80s" but it has stamps:



BTW that the coils were marked N and S to distinguish the regular and the RWRP coil seems plausible. That A and B show up on the same pickup is really bad for a theory that they stand for the model though, what else could A,B,C stand for?

 

[Sigmania]

The reason I asked is that in the catalog I checked, 1984, there were 4 different pickups used in the various Hard Punchers. If they look alike superficially it seems you would want to mark them to keep them straight.

 

[Sigmania]

Model line shrank by 1985, but the catalog seems to show 3 pickups in the various Hard Punchers and possibly another for the hybrid PJ55.

Single Coil split PB-Dynamic (TPB40/45)
Single Coil split PB-Super (TPB60)
Single Coil split PB-Vintage MKII (TPB50V)
Single Coil split PB (PJ55)

 

[Sigmania]

If I had to guess...

A = Single Coil split PB-Vintage
B = Single Coil split PB-Vintage MKII
C = Single Coil split PB-Super or Dynamic?

The "Super" pickups are odd since they appear in a wide range of models (48/50/60). Not sure what those are.

 

[Sigmania]

Would be great to find a 1985 TPB40/45 or TPB80 to check.

 

[Sigmania]

1979 Hard Puncher foldout:

The pickup is the heart of the bass. When a pickup with excellent performance works in perfect combination with the body, the expressive power of a precision bass becomes limitless. The PB series uses a split type pickup, and the PB80 and PB-60 are equipped with the PB/A type, and the PB-48 is equipped with the PB/B type. Split type pickups are basically single coils, but by combining two of them, it is a revolutionary pickup that creates a humbuckling effect. (Refer to the explanation in the diagram below) Also, the rubber cushion that secures the pickup prevents it from colliding with the body, and the brass shield plate provides an outstanding shielding effect. Both types A and B have their own characteristics, and the PB and A types were developed to create an old sound, and the same material as the old is used for the coil. You can play with that bitter, deep old sound. The PB/B type is a high-performance pickup specifically developed for tight precision bass sounds. Anyway, no matter which type you choose, your needs will be met 100%

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

1980 PB80 pickup (no or no identifiable stamps):

 

[Sigmania]

Looks like an A or N on the one in the background.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Tried my best to find something from a PB40/45/48 - here's the only one could find: 1981 PB-40



No stamps again as it seems, and it's not quite clear if that's really a PB40. I was expecting to see a cheap ceramic bar or something for the lowest grade pickup, but they really seem to look all the same.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Looks like an A or N on the one in the background.

Yeah the other one I posted has such a blotch too:



The problem is that they're on one of the coils only and they help not that much when they're leaving so much room for interpretation. But generally it looks like Tokai took a while until they came up with the idea to mark the PB-pickups consistently, and alas, since the pickup stamps have never gotten so much public attention (like on ST-pickups) people just don't take pics of them.

The theory seems sound (or even obvious) tho... I was just a bit confused by one of the pics voidoid56 posted, seemingly showing A and B on the same pickup, but the A could also be an incomplete B.

Both types A and B have their own characteristics, and the PB and A types were developed to create an old sound, and the same material as the old is used for the coil. You can play with that bitter, deep old sound. The PB/B type is a high-performance pickup specifically developed for tight precision bass sounds.

 

[Sigmania]

For reference the 1982 catalog

 

[Voidoid56]

As always: stellar research work, even if the results are infuriatingly inconclusive...

Looking at the pickup in the black bass IRL, I'm convinced that both halves have a B on them, besides the polarity stamps (which I'm 99% convinced it is). Why on earth does the one in the white one have (at least one) C and different lead insulation? Try as I might, I can't hear any difference in tone between the two whatsoever, and the resistance values are 10.49k for the black one and and 10.54k for the white. Seems like two identical pickups with what appears to be two different type designations. Oh well.

It's weird that this matter took so long to turn up. But like I said, you don't normally tend to get a look at the bottom flatwork of these pickups without some active picking and prying. The Strat pups are different, the stamps stare you in the face first thing when you pop the 'guard off. And yeah, it does seem odd that most bass pickups apparently are unmarked. On the other hand, so are the majority of Silver Star pickups, so...

 

[Voidoid56]

As a footnote: this one turned up for sale recently. It appears to be something like a heavily modified Greco PB580 or possibly the Aria Pro II equivalent, with a Feb '76 Matsu neckplate. It's has what could be the worst amateur fretless conversion I've seen so far, erased logo and probably a stripped finish.

The pickups has the S and N stamps but nothing more. Looks like the same typeface and positions as the ones in the TPBs I posted. With the player mods already going on, it's impossible to tell what it's doing in a Matsumoku-made bass, though. In a Greco you'd expect Maxons, in an APII either that or in-house pickups.

I guess we're going to be seeing these everywhere for a while, it's usually how these things work.

Auction listing in jauce.com:

check bost

 

[Sigmania]

That reminded me of this oddity.

Taking a second look at this odd bass....

It is probably a Frankenbass, but curious that it has a Fujigen style December 1977 serial number and "MATSUMOKU" on the plate where it’s rusting. Tokai spaghetti logo.

Brass nut like some early Tokais. Tuner housings look like brass too with nickel plate?

1977 Matsumoku Tokai??

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Greco PB580 or possibly the Aria Pro II equivalent

From a distance the PB580(N) and the Aria Pro-II PB550(N) look pretty identical, but only the Grecos had the brass nut if I see that right. So the mystery "Tokai" with the Mats neck plate would've been born as a Greco and may just have a Tokai decal slapped on, and yours would be an Aria Pro-II (or some other trading company buying that style off the Matsumoku factory).

Like I just added in the other thread, the L-serial shouldn't be confused with a Fender-style L-serial, it's just the Matsumoku 'letter-for-month, YY, production number' scheme. Voidoid56's Aria is interesting because I think it's the earliest example of that scheme I've seen so far - February '76.

 

[Voidoid56]

Like I just added in the other thread, the L-serial shouldn't be confused with a Fender-style L-serial, it's just the Matsumoku 'letter-for-month, YY, production number' scheme. Voidoid56's Aria is interesting because I think it's the earliest example of that scheme I've seen so far - February '76.

I have a Greco SE600S with an A76 serial. I'll see if I can rustle up some pics soon. Is there a more fitting thread for that, Homer?

 

[Sigmania]

Vtg Tokai ES-150 Electric Guitar Original Wiring Harness | eBay

I tried to spot any marking on the pickups on this JB45. Wondering if anyone else can see anything?