Vintage Tokai LS = Brazilian Rosewood or not?

[guitar hiro]

I have seen over the years where some 'sellers' are offering vintage Tokai LS examples with what is claimed to be "Brazilian" rosewood fingerboards. These are typically examples that are claimed to be LS-150 and LS-200.

So, my question is, is there any documentation, catalog info, anything, etc., from Tokai back in the day stating that any vintage Tokai LS examples were made with Brazilian rosewood fingerboards?

Thanks in advance for any real clarification and/or documentation from Tokai

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

I can’t say there is definitive proof.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

1980 is the first year for the LS200 (with catalog documentation) if I'm not mistaken, and there is no sign of that:

https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/1982-spring-catalog-hi-res-scans-translations.26114/page-3
BR wasn't all the rage yet in 1982, just some type of rosewood that's hard and expensive to obtain, with plenty of alternatives in all qualities. Of course, every other seller is also a dendrologist, often recognizing wood with their x-ray eyes through opaque finishes and all.

Edit: In the LS200 gallery, there is only one guitar that has a fretboard with a good enough picture of the fretboard and the details making me (not an expert) think "that could be passed as "Brazilian" rosewood".

The thing is, all I could learn about identifying BR is that it takes more than looking at it to really identify this stuff, and that all the household identification methods are either bogus (color and pore length on the fretboard) or impossible (measuring end grain for pore density, not possible on a bound Les Paul). For any serious (fluorescence, smell, DNA tests) identification, shavings off the board are needed and who in his right mind would do that to a finished fretboard on a particularly valuable guitar?

 

[Homeras]

I haven't seen any that would look like 100% brazilian, most looked like typical indian.

I can’t say there is definitive proof.

Where from did you, Cliff take this pic of Tokai LPs spec where ls200 were listed as having brazilian? Remember you had someting like this on your flickr

 

[Sigmania]

This came up last year around this time.

WHY Do Tokai & Tokai Sellers List Jacaranda as Brazilian

 

[guitar hiro]

@Sigmania

my only concern within this thread is sellers offering vintage Tokai LS examples with claimed Brazilian fingerboards and also if there is in fact any 'official' documentation by Tokai within that era relating to the use of Brazilian for the higher end vintage LS examples.
Hopefully the thread won't morph past that as I'm only interested in vintage Tokai LS examples and the possibility that any of those examples may have Brazilian boards.

 

[Sigmania]

In translating catalogs I’ve never seen a mention of Brazilian. I have seen Jacaranda which gets back to the circular argument of what Jacaranda actually means. I’ll let you know if I ever come across a specific reference to Brazilian.

By the way, on your LS320, was it listed as Brazilian or Jacaranda board?

 

[guitar hiro]

In translating catalogs I’ve never seen a mention of Brazilian. I have seen Jacaranda which gets back to the circular argument of what Jacaranda actually means. I’ll let you know if I ever come across a specific reference to Brazilian.

By the way, on your LS320, was it listed as Brazilian or Jacaranda board?

Do you recall which model(s) were listed as having Jacaranda? I'm asking in reference to vintage LS examples.



AFA your question about the 2000 LS-320: Page 8 of the 2000 catalog list the fingerboard material for the LS-320 as Jacaranda.
What is curious about the fingerboard on my 2000 LS-320 is it has a very silky slick feel to the touch, like an oily feeling to the touch but it's obviously not 'wet' but it feels like it's wet. Strange .......

 

[Sigmania]

I remember looking in that other thread.

No LS models that I recall.

The JB120 bass in the 1982 catalog is listed as having a Jacaranda fingerboard.

WHY Do Tokai & Tokai Sellers List Jacaranda as Brazilian

 

[Sigmania]

Not so helpful for the LS200 in the

1981 catalog






1982 catalog

 

[guitar hiro]

looks like no mention of fingerboard material in the 1981 info; curious

in the 1982 information the fingerboards are listed as (1) rosewood (2) finest rosewood (3) best rosewood for the LS-200. Interesting .......

 

[Sigmania]

I looked again with a better image. All the same in 1982 on the top LS models.

 

[Sigmania]

The kicker here though is that the LS150 and LS200 I believe were custom order guitars where the customer was able to choose the wood. So I would bet you would see a lot of variation. Also the supplies of materials would vary as to what they could get their hands on at any given time I would bet.

 

[guitar hiro]

so, it is possible there are vintage LS examples with Brazilian rosewood but it would seem there is some room for speculation and some room for unknowns all around; possibly?

 

[chuckyz2]

Since Cites didn't start until 1992, Tokai could have easily used BR. It was however not easy to come by and would be expensive. Quantities of the stuff were limited in the 60's and everyone was trying to get it. So just being able to acquire some would be a challenge. So to me, that would mean if there are any LS's with actual "Old Growth" BR, it would be a very limited number.
As for identifying the stuff, there is a way. Customs knows how to identify it. I wonder how they do it?
There are different kinds of BR and different parts of the tree that are desirable for different applications.
When you get some of the desirable stuff, true "Old Growth" that was hundreds of years old when it was harvested to near extinction in the 50's, it is definitely identifiable just by looking at it. As for finger boards, it would be 99% unlikely to see one with straight grain the full length of the finger board.
I have worked with true old growth BR. In old antique/vintage Stanley planes. You know when handle it and sand on it and polish it, that is very unique stuff. It is very oily, in comparison to Indian RW. It polishes out like nothing else. And the grain pattern, colors and end grain are different. The chocolate color in the brown, the reds and purples hues, and the black streaks. It is very different.
Refurbishing those old planes is what sparked my love for the stuff. I knew little to nothing about wood then, and was fascinated at the beauty in some of these handle and knobs and starting researching what it was. Imagine my disappointment when I found out it is practically unattainable.
I have seen a couple of pics of LS's that look they could have some of the old growth fingerboards. Only a couple and even those are hard to say from just pics. I'd wager there are a few going around. But I also know they were not the norm on the 200's. Most of the pics I have seen are Indian RW.
I prefer the dark, almost Ebony in color boards, and it appears to me those were not desired in the higher end guitars at the time.
My 60 has a really nice dark Indian RW that I love. My ES-100 is a little darker still and they both are consistent in color all the way down the board.
I have studied closely, many pics of the 50's and 1960 Les Pauls. BR has a different look to it. Just as it does on the backs and sides of Old acoustic guitars that were made with it vs ones made with the finest cuts of Indian. Night and day. It just has so much beautiful character.

Indian Vs Brazilian

 

[frehley76]

My 1981 LS60 solid flame top has what looks to be maybe Braz, but who knows, makes no difference to me.

 

[guitar hiro]

My 1981 LS60 solid flame top has what looks to be maybe Braz, but who knows, makes no difference to me.
View attachment 34334

I owned that guitar for a couple of years and it was still in all original condition when I sold it.
Amazing that any guitar could be intact and unmolested for 42 years.
It is a very interesting example as the maple top is nothing short of stellar and the rosewood 'board is quite unique.

The 'board doesn't have the typical look of quartersawn EIR which is what these typically have but it has some interesting reddish tones in certain lighting; this is most prominent at either end of the 'board.
When I purchased the guitar the 'board was extremely dry so, I oiled it with lemon oil, which darkened the 'board a bit but it didn't seem to do much as far as the dry nature of the rosewood.
The 'board didn't have any of that silky, oily, wet feeling characteristic that is some times associated with Brazilian samples but it sure looks nice.
Great guitar either way and it's a shame the original pots were removed because those are some of the best pots around and they worked perfect.

 

[frehley76]

The boa

I owned that guitar for a couple of years and it was still in all original condition when I sold it.
Amazing that any guitar could be intact and unmolested for 42 years.
It is a very interesting example as the maple top is nothing short of stellar and the rosewood 'board is quite unique.

The 'board doesn't have the typical look of quartersawn EIR which is what these typically have but it has some interesting reddish tones in certain lighting; this is most prominent at either end of the 'board.
When I purchased the guitar the 'board was extremely dry so, I oiled it with lemon oil, which darkened the 'board a bit but it didn't seem to do much as far as the dry nature of the rosewood.
The 'board didn't have any of that silky, oily, wet feeling characteristic that is some times associated with Brazilian samples but it sure looks nice.
Great guitar either way and it's a shame the original pots were removed because those are some of the best pots around and they worked perfect.


View attachment 34405


View attachment 34406



View attachment 34407

The board is more like raw wood now, I had a refret done and that weird coating it had has been planed off. I love the way the fretboard looks and the top is even better! It is a great sounding guitar as well. Someone had scraped the crap out of the fretboard, maybe trying to file the fret ends? It is perfect now.

 

[frehley76]

A couple more pics.

 

[chuckyz2]

I owned that guitar for a couple of years and it was still in all original condition when I sold it.
Amazing that any guitar could be intact and unmolested for 42 years.
It is a very interesting example as the maple top is nothing short of stellar and the rosewood 'board is quite unique.

The 'board doesn't have the typical look of quartersawn EIR which is what these typically have but it has some interesting reddish tones in certain lighting; this is most prominent at either end of the 'board.
When I purchased the guitar the 'board was extremely dry so, I oiled it with lemon oil, which darkened the 'board a bit but it didn't seem to do much as far as the dry nature of the rosewood.
The 'board didn't have any of that silky, oily, wet feeling characteristic that is some times associated with Brazilian samples but it sure looks nice.
Great guitar either way and it's a shame the original pots were removed because those are some of the best pots around and they worked perfect.


View attachment 34405


View attachment 34406



View attachment 34407

It is most definitely a different kind of cut. They use quarter sawn for a reason. For stability. Even quarter necks move with minor changes to temps and moisture. Can't imagine how much more this would. It is very odd though, to see that on a 81 60. They are usually all pretty consistent in build. Especially the body top. Plain. Either a 200 slipped through the cracks or it had an issue that lowered its ranking. Very odd indeed.