Matsushita Selector Switch?

[Sigmania]

Bingo! Luxury version of a code confirmation.

View attachment 38408
November stamp

View attachment 38404View attachment 38406
October '83 switch and September '83 pot code

The only thing we don't have from this guitar with VII PUs is a serial. Would've been nice.

Interesting.... I would probably have mistaken that for a zero. Good work!

 

[Sigmania]

The tear out wiped off

LOL

 

[Sigmania]

Bingo! Luxury version of a code confirmation.

View attachment 38408
November stamp

View attachment 38404View attachment 38406
October '83 switch and September '83 pot code

The only thing we don't have from this guitar with VII PUs is a serial. Would've been nice.

And that is about when the V and VII marked pickups appear. October/November. Very cool.

 

[Sigmania]

What I would typically see when dating pots on mid to late 80s TST, AST, etc. guitars is the pot dates are 1-3 months ahead of the production stamps. Not always, but very often.

That is when I realized it had to be the month code as a couple people (Gottfried & Felix as I recall) had asserted previously.

felixcatus had been attacked on here for saying he was told it was a month code and I tried to make a point of vindicating him. He was right!

 

[Voidoid56]

Pitching in.
I have infuriatingly few pics with legible switch codes in my archive, for some reason I've never really thought about them before. Looks like which side I've shot the switches from has been largely dependent on which direction the pickguard wanted to flip when I took it out...

Anyway, here are five of them. I've correlated them with neck/body codes, might be a good idea if we suspect that there is a month code involved. Which I definitely believe the second digit is, as a D for December turned up in one of these.

Re. the third digit: so far, 1, 2 and 3 have been seen. This lines up with some of the older pot codes (not used in Tokais, as far as I know), ending either in 1, 2 or 3 or with 1, 2 or 3 vertical lines. It has been suspected to denote the jun, i e the third of the month the part was manufactured, according to traditional Japanese reckoning. I don't know if this is possible to confirm other than through official sources or eyewitness accounts, but on the other hand it's more of a curiosity than a meaningful dating tool...


TST-60, 1983: switch 341, body 5=1


TST-60OWR 1983: switch 391 body 10=1


ST-50BB 1982: switch (probably) 193, body 10=5


ST-50BB 1982: switch 1D1, body 3=2


An finally, a all-Tokai parts guitar I put together a few years ago: switch 103

 

[Voidoid56]

...and one more, partially decipherable switch code:



TST-50GS 1987, switch 6?1, neck 5-17, pots 73.

 

[ATO]

Wow, there's the D. I would say that's pretty strong evidence they are year/month codes.

 

[Sigmania]

Awesome. That last one looks like 641 with a scratch through the 4.

If so, much longer time sitting around in 1986/87. April 1986 part in a May 1987 guitar.

 

[Sigmania]

I am asking because if the first digit is the year, I may have a re-badged June 1982 ST70 instead of a 1983 TST70.

Kind of makes me take another look at the odd surface on the headstock.

View attachment 38387
View attachment 38391

I started trying to sort out these 6 digit Fender style serial numbers.

So far it is looking like the change happens from spag to script in the 106xxx numbers, so my TST70 SN 107628 is probably an '83 after all, and the switch would have sat around for a year before being put in the guitar like the previous example shared by Voidoid56?

Six Digit Fender Style Serial Numbers

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Pitching in.

Thank you! I was hoping you would! Good thinking with the Jun periods, that makes perfect sense given the known usage on pots. I've seen the 1/3rd illegible 86 number too, and thought it was a strong indication that the scheme checks out just fine (and that they were still making those switches in '86).

With the 'D' added to the collection there is no doubt that this works fine, and what strikes me too is that the switches seem more often than not to be only 1-2 months older than the other parts, so this seems to be just as good as pot codes. Well, until 1986 apparently.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Forgot to add, Matsushita 3-way switches like in the Breezys have apparently been used in Grecos for longer than Tokais, but so far I haven't found the particular "soft 5-way" with the metal bracket in Grecos, so it seems this had been a Tokai-exclusive thing indeed.

Also, so far I couldn't find a Greco switch with a legible date code, which may be down to the quality and seemingly smaller amount of pics (and the fact that it's really hard to take pics of the imprint in the epoxy/Pertinax/whatever plates).

 

[Voidoid56]

Forgot to add, Matsushita 3-way switches like in the Breezys have apparently been used in Grecos for longer than Tokais, but so far I haven't found the particular "soft 5-way" with the metal bracket in Grecos, so it seems this had been a Tokai-exclusive thing indeed.

Also, so far I couldn't find a Greco switch with a legible date code, which may be down to the quality and seemingly smaller amount of pics (and the fact that it's really hard to take pics of the imprint in the epoxy/Pertinax/whatever plates).

I seem to remember coming across a soft 2-4 switch in some other brand of Strat copy at some point, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was. Possibly an Aria Pro II from their final generation of copies from the early 80's? I'll dig around and see if something turns up.

I can't recall ever seeing that particular type of switch in a Greco SE. To begin with they really only had switches with the standard 41 mm mounting screw pitch during 1980-82. Before that, they had the earlier 32 mm switches (never used by Tokai afaik), and they are of quite different construction. But I'll have a look.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I seem to remember coming across a soft 2-4 switch in some other brand of Strat copy at some point,

Interesting! So maybe not that exclusive.

I can't recall ever seeing that particular type of switch in a Greco SE

Yeah they also used the (sometimes called "DM"-switch) CRL-style switch, not sure about the timeline not my current research subject. Looks like Tokais had this style of switch too, until '81 or something.

Here's the guts from a Greco with the Mats 3-way switch (this one seems pretty old):

https://reverb.com/ca/item/16382842...r-3-way-wiring-harness-original-vintage-japan
A newer one:

https://reverb.com/item/64891878-19...ring-harness-250k-pots-original-vintage-japan
Example loaded PG with that kind of switch:

https://reverb.com/ca/item/16382842...r-3-way-wiring-harness-original-vintage-japan

 

[ATO]

Here's another one of mine
1981 ST50 9=13 1020999
Switch number 16 2

 

[Sigmania]

I was thinking that one cool thing about these switches is not only do they help us dating a period where we don’t have pots that we can date, but it’s also unlikely that they would get replaced or that the ones we are seeing would be replacements. Because I get the sense that they’re not that easy to find. And they’re good switches so they probably don’t need to replace them.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

So apart from the 1986 outlier (assumed to be troublesome times) the biggest gap between switch and body stamps seen so far is 3 months (also WRT to Sigmanias theory about his ST70).

Meanwhile I realized that the "VLX53" (VLX54 for 3-way) switch available since 1985 and introduced on Tokais 1986/87 (and Ibanez, Fender Japan, Fernandes, everyone and their dogs) looks like it has a date code sticker too:



The scheme could be YMDD, with the month coded A-L. So this would be 1988 (or 98, 2008...), November 4th (deliberately showing a late month, hard to find pics again):



Maybe less important since these guitars occasionally have pot stamps, and the stickers may fall off but anyway, the more date indicators the better.

 

[Sigmania]

Oh man, I can’t look right now but if you could date those pots from the 90s that would be incredible. There is such a long gap of bad information or no serial numbers or whatever spanning from around 1992 until 2009. But they all have cheap switches And I am wondering if they have codes on them? I’m driving so I shouldn’t be texting, but they would be in that thread with the six digit 01xxxx serial numbers, as well as the no serial threads.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

And they’re good switches so they probably don’t need to replace them.

I hope you don't underestimate the modding-happy Strat crowd there but yeah, what I saw in most guitars that looked modded so far was probably the "DM" CRL-style switch apparently used in Tokais prior to '81 and not a replacement (and there's nothing wrong with replacing those with a CRL if needed). It looks like most people have kept the Mats switch in their ST/TST.

 

[ATO]

So apart from the 1986 outlier (assumed to be troublesome times) the biggest gap between switch and body stamps seen so far is 3 months (also WRT to Sigmanias theory about his ST70).

Meanwhile I realized that the "VLX53" (VLX54 for 3-way) switch available since 1985 and introduced on Tokais 1986/87 (and Ibanez, Fender Japan, Fernandes, everyone and their dogs) looks like it has a date code sticker too:

View attachment 38522

The scheme could be YMDD, with the month coded A-L. So this would be 1988 (or 98, 2008...), November 4th (deliberately showing a late month, hard to find pics again):

View attachment 38523

Maybe less important since these guitars usually have pot stamps, and the stickers may fall off but anyway, the more date indicators the better.

Got one of those too

TST40 OW 228757 9-11 (though there is no -)

No dates on the pots

Switch 7I09, which by Homer's theory would make it 9th September 1987

 

[Sigmania]

Sweetness