Any evidence of natural relicing of Love Rocks?

[Sludgefrog]

Hello - I've been a part of many Tokai conversations with owners over the years and they all share photos. One thing I've never seen much of is evidence of natural relicing of Tokai's Les Paul-shaped guitars. Here, I'm talking about the sort of things that happen from heavy play over years and decades:

- Cellulose degradation
- Alteration of the guitar's finish due to player sweat and oils on the neck and body
- Paint colors changing due to sunlight exposure (red into yellow)
- Oxidization of gold paint into green (seen on Les Paul goldtops)

I have, however, seen oxidization on the metals.

I understand the model / year determines the finish, with premium models having a "lacquer finish". I personally own guitars through that spectrum, including a "lacquer finish" LS198s, an LS200J, a KLS170F and two LS196s.

I am starting to suspect that Tokai Love Rocks, while they look very much like Les Pauls, they do not behave or relic over time like Les Pauls.

I would appreciate any evidence (not conjecture, that adds nothing) that Tokai Love Rocks do in fact relic naturally with heavy use. Does anyone have a natural relic that fits these definitions?

Thank you

 

[guitar hiro]

I have owned and played Tokai LS examples from 'vintage' to more modern and at pretty much across every grade; have yet to see a single example demonstrate lacquer checking. Not a single one .........

 

[CliffsGuitarWorld]

Not an LS, but check out this 1979 Tokai ST-80 checking.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/cliffsguitarworld/DQ1ms9m23V

 

[Sigmania]

I had read in some of my translations of Tokai ads or catalogs, which I can't track down now, that there were levels of finish coatings.

The point being that some "lacquer" finishes were in some cases lacquer over polyurethane. And my recollection is that some were "all lacquer". Assuming all lacquer was on higher priced models. And of course there was cashew for a time.

One day I will find where I read that and try to post it here.

 

[ATO]

It's been discussed here before, shame the pics have gone:

https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/laquer-checking-on-old-tokais-pics.12696/

 

[ATO]

I've got an 83 TST100 that is covered in lacquer checking, obviously not LS though.

 

[chuckyz2]

The Lacquer used by Tokai. at least on the vintage LS and ES guitars I have and have seen, are obviously not the same as the lacquer used by Gibson. It's good that it will look as good as new forever but for me, I like the way old Gibsons and Fenders check.

 

[Sigmania]

Related threads:

Nitro or Poly?
ageing

 

[Sigmania]

Pre-1982 LS80 and above, post 82 LS150 and above; in recent times, the high end Love Rocks are all nitro. The nitro over poly thing is a fairly recent addition if I recall correctly, but I don't know exactly when, sorry. 90s?


Edit: probably later than that actually. Some modern Toks have "All lacquer" stickers (as opposed to their "Lacquer Finish" stickers) which are as they suggest too.


Edit: here you go, a good example.


LS250 - "Finish: Lacquer Finish"
http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/inde...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

LS370 - "Finish: All Lacquer"
http://www.tokai-guitars.co.uk/inde...facturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

 

[Freebird]

Gibson and Fender are clearly the standards by which so many other guitar manufacturers are compared against. Whether it be the type of finish used, neck angle, top carve, etc.
For instance, why wouldn’t a nice beautiful smooth long lasting finish be preferred over nitrocellulose that checks overtime?

 

[Slowhand]

Here is some checking on my '80 ls100. It's definitely there but more subtle than my vintage Gibsons. Maybe it will still change over time. My tokai st80 for example has crazy checking all over the body, but I can't confirm if it's the original lacquer.

 

[Slowhand]

And here on my st80

 

[Sigmania]

Serious mojo. Buckle rash?

 

[Slowhand]

Yes a lot of buckle rash on both guitars.

 

[solderjunkie]

1980 LS150


1979 LS100

 

[MarcoXMarco]

1980 LS150
View attachment 58420View attachment 58421

1979 LS100
View attachment 58424View attachment 58425View attachment 58426View attachment 58422

1980 LS150
View attachment 58420View attachment 58421

1979 LS100
View attachment 58424View attachment 58425View attachment 58426View attachment 58422

Hi Solderjunkie,
Marco

So your Les Paul LS150 is a, ¿"Standard"?, because of the "S" in its LS150 model designation? Though origionally selling for 150K ¥, I assume that means in 1980 dollars, a very high-end model?

Is your 150 the demonstration that we're mostly seeing old Tokais that are not the *real*, *full depth* nitrocellulose laquer finished guitars, and that's why we see so little, and so very tiny cracking when we do see it ?
Is your 150 one of the highest end "Cashew" finished Tokais ?

 

[solderjunkie]

Hi Solderjunkie,
Marco

So your Les Paul LS150 is a, ¿"Standard"?, because of the "S" in its LS150 model designation? Though origionally selling for 150K ¥, I assume that means in 1980 dollars, a very high-end model?

Is your 150 the demonstration that we're mostly seeing old Tokais that are not the *real*, *full depth* nitrocellulose laquer finished guitars, and that's why we see so little, and so very tiny cracking when we do see it ?
Is your 150 one of the highest end "Cashew" finished Tokais ?

Marco,
Not sure I fully comprehend your question, but the 150 was one of the highest models of the time…the 200 being the highest. I do believe this 150 has the so-called cashew lacquer finish and the checking is more like what you would see on a vintage Gibson with lateral bands. and cracking appears to go the full depth of the finish. I also believe Tokai experimented with different formulations in the earlier (79/80) LS models. The LS100 presented is the only one I’ve seen with checking, and although the checking is extensive, its character is clearly different from that of the 150, so likely a different formulation/application.

 

[Sigmania]

The LS150 was all lacquer and the LS200 was cashew. It is pretty easy to tell when you look at them. Cashew is very yellow so your binding would be yellow. And if you shine an LED light it really lights up as yellow.

Here is my 1981 TE120 with cashew finish to show how yellow it looks.

 

[Emiel]

Except for some short and fine lines here and there, the finishes on my '80 LS80 and '81 ES100 remain pretty much faultless with no checking. I guess the latter once sat in a guitar stand for a long time as the lacquer has 'bubbled up' right at the places where the guitar would be touching the stand. My '78 PB80 on the other hand has a very different looking finish with lots of wear and checking. From a distance it looks like a way older instrument.