What amp for an appartment

[Ozeshin]

WELLLLL...
I checked the specs and the 15 watt and the 30 watt only have midi in/out..no USB.
Only 75 and up have the USB... kinda louder than I really need....BUT.....
75 and up have a built in attenuator called a Power Sponge.

 

[DaveWW]

If you want my opinion, and I'm sure you don't but your gonna get it anyway :lol: For an Apartment something like a line6 Tone port http://uk.line6.com/podstudioux1/ plus M-Audio Studiophile AV40 speakers http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/StudiophileAV40.html is best. It sounds great and the included Pod Farm modelling software is second to none. You can turn the volume way down without loss. It's go pretty loud too if you want. Although it sounds great, if I'm honest, most guitars will sound very similar if slightly sterile. But for Apertment necesasary volumes I don't think you'll beat it.

But...........I don't live in an apartment and don't have neighbours too near so I only really have to worry about the missus so I play mostly through my 5Watt Blackheart Little Giant which even with power scaling you have to play a little too load for an apartment.

In summary something solid state or a Line 6 toneport is best IMVHO.


Dave

 

[japanstrat]

Yeah but IMO all those modellers sound like ????.
They are handy but the tone just aint really tube.

I'm running a couple of Epiphone Valve Juniors and a Zvez Nano in master/slave setups as I posted above and the tone is tube and is at bedroom levels if I want it to be.

I also run the Zvex Nano or the Epi's into a load box and through my Behringer V-Amp Pro Cabinet Sim and record it and the tone is very close or identical to a cranked tube amp.

The Zvex Nano is 1/2 watt and even this can be too loud for bedroom levels when it's cranked.
The Epi's 5 watts is surprisingly loud.

 

[DaveWW]

Yeah but IMO all those modellers sound like ????.
They are handy but the tone just aint really tube.

Yeh, I agree but at low volume still think it's hard to beat.

I think these discussions highlight why we're all in search of that perfect tone all of the time. In truth we'll probably never get there but it's interesting and great fun trying. :lol:


Dave

 

[japanstrat]

I have a Behringer V-Amp Pro and a Vox Tonelab and a Line 6 UX1 and a Digitech RP50.
I've heard samples of the latest Zooms and others as well.
I will admit to practising through the Digitech RP50 sometimes, but it's not the greatest sound.
The Tonelab sounds the best to me but I have a NOS Mullard 12AX7 in it.


With Tube/Valve amps and volume control there is the attenuator between the amp's output and the speaker or there is running 2 amps in a master/slave setup or slaving, using a line level load box.

The 2 amps in a master/slave setup or slaving, is the only setup that sounds good and can sound really good and I've tried just about everything for volume control.

The master/slave setup or slaving, is what Randy Bachman used on American Woman where a Champ is slaved into another amp and stacks of other guitarists have used it like Eddie Van Halen and others.

It gives great tone at any volume.

 

[DaveWW]

I have a Behringer V-Amp Pro and a Vox Tonelab and a Line 6 UX1 and a Digitech RP50.
I've heard samples of the latest Zooms and others as well.
I will admit to practising through the Digitech RP50 sometimes but it's not the greatest sound.
The Tonelab sounds the best to me but I have a NOS Mullard 12AX7 in it.


With Tube/Valve amps and volume control there is the attenuator between the amp's output and the speaker or there is running 2 amps in a master/slave setup or slaving, using a line level load box.

The 2 amps in a master/slave setup or slaving is the only setup that sounds good and can sound really good and I've tried just about everything for volume control.

Yep, I don't think we disagree at all really. If you haven't tried powerscaling you should it's definitely better than an attenuator where you will always loose some tone.

Dave

 

[japanstrat]

Powerscaling is the only thing I think I havn't tried but I don't need it and it alters too much of the amps voltage and therefore tone for me and it's a bit gimicky.

There are master volumes that don't really sound that great at low volumes because the power tubes never get a chance to distort.
There is a variable power supply variac but it only drops the volume so much and also alters the tone.

Then there is the Hotplate used as a attenuator between the amps output and speaker that degrades the tone with high levels of attenuation.

1 main tube amp into a hotplate set to load then into a power amp with guitar speakers attached is all that's needed for getting the main tube amp's power tube distortion at any volume without degrading the tone.

 

[DaveWW]

I submit :lol:

Dave

 

[japanstrat]

I'm not disagreeing with whatever someone wants to use, I mean it's up to them but if a player wants tube tone at bedroom levels then the master/slave 2 amp setup sounds the best to a lot of players once they have tried it and it's setup properly.

The old/still club playing way was to mike a smaller cranked tube amp and control it's volume with the PA's amp.

The master/slave 2 amp setup is similar in principle with the first amp being a cranked tube amp and the second volume controlling power amp being similar to the PA controlling the volume in the miked amp PA club setup.

guitar->miked cranked tube amp->volume controlling PA power amp

guitar->cranked tube amp->line out load box->volume controlling power amp

 

[DaveWW]

Hi Japanstrat,

Technically I don't know enough to debate with you but you really should try powerscaling to use an overused americanism it's awsome.....I just know whatt I've tried and how it sounds. Remember we're talkiing apartment level volumes here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ooh4x6GuXA

My blackheart has both a master volume and power scaling and I get the best results using both - don't know or understand why but it does. One of the other main problems seems to me that you need to push a certain volume through say a 12 inch spreaker for it to sound any good at all powerscaled or attenuated or not. A lot of apartment valve amps use speakers that are just too small.

Dave

 

[japanstrat]

When a real amp is cranked then speaker distortion can happen which can add to the tone but at lower volumes it doesn't happen.

Here is a 2 amp master/slaved slaving clip.
The player plays in Starship and is a EVH fan so it's EVH style but lots of other tones can be had and the home recording is a bit trebly and rough.
Played on a Strat with a DiMarzio Super Distortion with the magnet changed from the stock ceramic to a Alnico 5 magnet.

It's basically a cranked tube Plexi first amp into a line out load which is a Marshall Powerbrake and then the line out is taken to amp 2 which is a tube power amp (effects return input) and then guitar speakers.
Amp 2 can set the volume at any level (including bedroom level) and the same tone will still result.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=503988&songID=6917395

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=503988&songID=7164257

 

[DaveWW]

Sounds pretty awsome. The guy on ebay I got my power scaled amp from now does a lot with powerr scaling 1 and 2. The additional setting is supposed to be EVH brown out. Never heard it but I'd like to.

Ref. your freinds set up some pic's would be interesting.

Dave

 

[japanstrat]

Powerscaling or other things can work well.
With this 2 amp Master/Slave slaving setup it's not that expensive to do and it can sound very good.

No photos that I know of.
He plays around with amps trying this and that and also plays with Starship.

It's just a cranked Plexi into a Marshall Powerbrake then (slaved) into the power amp section of another Plexi like amp set clean and controlling the final volume and then out through guitar speakers.

Guitar->1st Plexi cranked->Marshall Powerbrake line out->2nd Plexi like amp power section that bypasses the preamp (effects return input) the amp is set clean and controls the final volume->guitar speakers

http://www.markabrahamian.com/bio.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Thomas_(singer)

 

[leadguitar_323]

Excellent example of power scaling and no discernible loss of tone....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBUxUB-6qjw
Power scaling is show near the ens of the demo.


Mick

 

[japanstrat]

I'm not dismissing power scaling but it does things to the amps voltage.

EVH used a variac in the 70s which is a variable power supply to drop the voltage and volume of a 100 watt Plexi down a bit.
He lowered the AC wall voltage from around 110 to 90 volts.
By lowering the voltage down to 90 volts the tube voltages were also lowered.
Tubes have a plate voltage and a adjustable bias voltage and a heater voltage.
All 3 of these voltages went down together when Ed used the variac on 90 volts but he used to alter the adjustable bias voltage to get some balance otherwise his bias voltage would be out of sync with his plate voltage.
The heater voltage went down as well and it can damage the tubes if it's too low.

Power Scaling does the same as a variac but alters the tubes plate and bias voltages in sync automatically and power scaling doesn't drop the tubes heater voltage.

Power Scaling is a more refined and better adjusted variac.

http://www.bruceclement.com/music/psk.htm

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/mt24/Amp/mm/powerscale.html

http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Guitar+Amp/product/London+Power/Scaling+Kit+Combo/10/1

With all this voltage dropping going on, I would personally give it a miss and just stick to a tube amp running with normal voltages and the best way I have found for volume control is the 2 amp Master/Slave slaving setup in my earlier posts.

But each to their own thing.

Running a hotplate set as a attenuator between a amps output and the speaker can degrade the tone as the volume goes down so that's why the hotplate has filter bright and deep switches to try to compensate but the tone will still be affected.

 

[DaveWW]

Just noticed that Rat Valveampms now has it's own website

http://ratvalveamps.com/

He's a very helpful guy and a few of us have recommended him here. His website explains the benefits of powerscaling far better than I can ever do. Also links to the London Power website and forums if you want to get really technical.

Dave

 

[japanstrat]

A simple example that's basically powerscaling is the guitar or mic tube/valve pedal preamps that run off say 20 volts.
Like the Behringer VT911 tube pedal http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/VT911.aspx

My figures are not exact but I'm just using them as an example.

Usually these tube pedals have a 12ax7 in them which is running with say around 20 volts.

In a Marshall tube amp the 12ax7 is running with say 250 volts.

A tube can be run at low voltages but they are really made to run at high voltages.
Some people don't like the tone of a tube run with lower voltages.
They think that the tone degrades as the tube voltage lowers.

Running a 12ax7 at 250 volts in a Marshall will mean it's output voltage will be much higher than when the 12ax7 is running at 20 volts in a pedal.

Powerscaling works the same way.
It just runs the tubes at a lower voltage than normal just like the tube pedals and this results in lower voltage and power output and therefore lower volume.

Anyway powerscaling is a good idea but there are others as well.

 

[dombat]

The Variable Voltage Regulator!!!!
I use a Tweed Deluxe clone, 60 jensen P12R speaker, I moded using a VVR. You can have preamp AND amp crunch without destroying your tubes. Costed me $10 of parts (one MOS-FET, 2 res, one power res, one zener and one pot.

 

[JohnA]

Just to clarify Powerscaling or VVR is not the same as using a variac. Powerscaling reduces the B+ DC voltage, a variac reduces the AC input to the rectifier and therefore your amp draws MORE current.

VVR/Powerscaling will make your valves last longer, a variac will cook them in no-time!

 

[japanstrat]

Tube voltages are biased by using a Tube transfer curve that are in the old Tube engineering books. Each Tube type has a different transfer curve.

Powerscaling drops the main DC Tube voltage and automatically rebiases the Tubes bias voltage around the Tube transfer curve.
Powerscaling also leaves the Tubes heater voltages alone.

The main concerns with running Tubes under their normal voltage levels are how things like the dynamics and headroom and tone are affected.

Variacs just drop or increase the AC voltage and therefore all the Tubes DC voltages and also the Tubes heater voltages. Variacs don't automatically rebias the Tubes bias voltage and using a Variac will throw the Tubes bias voltage off balance and if it throws the Tubes bias voltage off balance too much then the resulting tone will be bad sounding.
If the amp has a adjustable bias then it can be adjusted manually in sync with the variac which is what EVH used to do.
The Variac also alters the Tubes heater voltages which can damage the Tubes.

A attenuator like the Hotplate that's connected between the amps output and the speaker just drops the amps output voltage that goes to the Speaker. The tone can degrade at high levels of attenuation.

The 2 amp Master/Slave slaving setup just drops the main first amps output voltage down to line or instrument level using a load box and then it gets reamplified by a second amp to whatever volume level depending on the volume settings of the second amp.
So the tone degrading at high levels of attenuation doesn't come into it and the dynamics and headroom and tone of the main first amp are not interfered with much especially if a clean sounding wide range or frequency power amp is used as the second amp (like a PA or Keyboard amp or a Tube amps effect return input).