"super-electricity" Tokais

[TSL]

I see on ebay the Chinese copies now include Tokai logos as well as Gibson. Actually, I thought the headstocks and logos looked more real on the Tokai copies than on the Gibson copies.

Makes me wonder if the guy who showed all those pictures of a bum Tokai LC maybe actually was sold a Chinese "super electricity*" guitar instead.


*Woke up the wife laughing about Super Electricity guitars the other night. She has joined me in the humor. My whole collection she now refers to as Super Electricity instruments. All "most noble with highest respect". I think the people selling those didn't actually write the text, but used a web translator.

No offense to our Chinese friends, just find those ads for cheap fake guitars comical.

 

[andi-o]

I hope that eBay sooner or later will stop this
whole chinese fake auction nonsense. Although those
auctions make me laugh sometimes (a Diezel VH4
Top for 250 USD - man, I must be stupid, I paid way
much more for my Diezel VH4!) - these auctions aim
at deceiving buyers - no matter how funny the descriptions
may be! If you bid on an auction like that you either get a
big POS or you simply get nothing. Does anybody honestly
think you can get your money back from China? No way!:evil:

Andi

 

[bruceboomstick]

I hope that eBay sooner or later will stop this
whole chinese fake auction nonsense

I find the chinese copies really amusining - I like the "Amazing Fair Sounding Guitar" - I'd actually want one that sounds better than "fair".

Just for a laugh I email ebay support and asked what they're policy on knock off goods was.

The reply was priceless - I'll post it when I find it.

Basically because you have to enter a username when you ask a question I put in NOT APPLICABLE (as I was refering to many items). On thier reply ebay stated that "NOT APPLICABLE is no longer a registered user and due to privacy laws ebay are unable to discuss the matter any further"

Did they not understand the question or by answering would they have to admit there was a problem............

As for the chinese - they don't really bother me - I know what there selling, but I wish they wouldn't list in every category, it makes searching a nightmare

 

[Snake]

I agree with the want that they not be listed in every single category, if they kept to the "others" kinda thing then it would be ok.

I find no real problem with these guitars, as long as people know what they are buying. People in the market for a Gibson will know what is what and generally be able to spot these a long way off (though I have seen a few that are clone listings). Equally, people who are reasonabily familiar with eBay will realise these are fakes. However, people who are perhaps looking for a first guitar, perhaps looking at an epiphone (they fake these too...), and at the same time using ebay for the first time, these people could fall for it. So I would say for those people it would be best for the auctions to go (Not before I get one mind!)

Any chance of a link to an electricity tokai? I have not seen one yet.

 

[TSL]

I'll post a link next one I see. Should've kept that last one, can't find one right now. Did see a couple of them though.

 

[Donkey Oaty]

I was talking to someone about these listings the other day. It seems a great many of these guitars already reside in the UK. The listing headings are written to sound like a bad translation ( to give them some kind of genuine credit ).

A guy on the ebay community forums has been requesting ebay ban these listings because they circumvent ebay listing rules and ebay takes no notice every time. So he tried to gather information regarding a specific seller. It turned out the buyer lived in Manchester and had around 20 user names all claiming to be from China. He shipped the fake guitars ( The branded ones are fake obviously, but some of the Jem 777 copys are the usual ?100 ones on ebay ) via Parcel Force or Royal Mail standard parcels.

The guitars that did turn up were delivered in 48 hours ( friggin quick form China ). Even armed with all this evidence, ebay still took no notice.

Most listings including womens clothes are being worked by the Chinese.

 

[bruceboomstick]

The listing headings are written to sound like a bad translation

That's certainly a trick employed by the notorious 419 scammers - they use bad english to appear dumb and lull potential victims into a false sense of security.

Certainly if I were selling knock off guitars in the UK I'd want to disguise my whereabouts.

I must confess to never even considered that the seller wouldn't be where they say they are (so it works !!)

 

[Snake]

I still havn't seen a tokai one of these but I just stumbled on a greco one. It is pretty interesting that some sellers are pretending tp be in china but actually are located in the UK. I saw someone on one of these auctions had left loads and loads of negative feedback, i.e they signed up with a new ebay account, bid on loads of these items, then left negative feedback. I saw on the ebay forums a while back discussion on this, I guess people have decided to take it into their own hands.

 

[Donkey Oaty]

I saw on the ebay forums a while back discussion on this, I guess people have decided to take it into their own hands.

Ther are a growing group of people registering new eBay names and then buying all the Chinese scammers guitars and leaving negs.

I think your making ref to the new name scambuster ?

Ebay will ban that name soon, but each person who takes part has hundreds of new accounts ready to go.

A few results have come about :

A: The amount of 99p bid and ?200 postage listings are dropping

B: More of these Chinese sellers are getting banned

C: The fakes are getting worse !

It shows that direct action is getting results from eBay. If you want to take part. Register an eBay user name ( or several ) and bid away. The idea is to get the BIN listings of with once click and warn others.

 

[jawilluk]

Sounds like a good idea. I'm in.

 

[bunbury]

I've bought two super electricity guitars. They are dirt cheap (add the post and the price to get the cost). Delivery was fast and eficient Both have straight necks and play and sound better with replacement pickups than an Epiphone LP standard I recently sold (2.5 times more expensive). I checked the sellers in advance and one was very keen to make sure I understood it was 'imitate Gibson', 'not real Gibson'. So no fraud then. One of them looks really good. The other's OK.

I doubt they'll last more than a year or three, but at this price I'll keep the hardware and then bin and replace the bodies. Meanwhile, they're a laugh and they keep my son off my better guitars.

Fraud is not a national character trait. The only fraud I've experienced in recent years was when buying e-bay guitar parts from Germany. I see the UK and Canada named in frauds on this site, and the USA? - well, try Enron and Martha Stewart.

If everything that came out of China was fraudulent, the dollar wouldn't be in tail-spin and US companies (including Gibson) wouldn't be rushing to set production in China. And many of the production lines used by the Chinese are bought second-hand from Japan ....

So, yes there's fraud in China, but make sure you don't drive and honest trader out of business just for being Chinese.

That's my half-penny worth.

 

[bunbury]

A: The amount of 99p bid and ?200 postage listings are dropping

B: More of these Chinese sellers are getting banned

C: The fakes are getting worse ! .

Sorry - I can't let this go! Fake and fraud are not the same. By all means get fraud stopped but:

Your points:

A: "Guitar ?5, delivery ?140" or "Guitar ?145, Delivery free". Both offer an illusory incentive to buy a product that will cost you ?145. They have the same moral and legal status. Free delivery is impossible (unless, perhaps, local - even then there's yr time) while a ?5 guitar is just improbable. Why attack one and not the other?

B: Banning people for fraud is very good. Forcing them out of business because you don't like a sales pitch is not good.

C: How do you know? Are they re-tooling? No one tried to force Gibson out of business for this in the 70s. If you think something's tat, then buy elsewhere ...

If the Chinese get you so angry, how about also having a go at the hundreds of European and US traders selling Gibson, Fender and Tokai headstock logos? Or all the rest of the world's many guitar-business fraudsters.

Faking is a copyright offence. I have two law-suit Tokais (a '70s LS80 and a 1980 Springy 80) that are much better repros of the Gibson and Fender orginals than the super electricities - and Tokai have lost a court case to prove it. Ban vintage Tokais? No thanks.

 

[stratmoto]

Hi bunbury,

My take on some of these ebay listings:-

A. If you buy the item for 99p and pay 200 quid postage and it does not arrive or..whatever else can go wrong buying sight unseen. If you use paypal, you will only be able to recover the 99p for the item. The 200 quid postage is not covered. This can leave you exposed to a 200 quid loss. You might get you 99p back, but who is going to bother?

B. Agreed

C. I haven't looked so. I can't say.

These "fakes" have G!bson and Made in the USA on them. I do not believe that, until proven otherwise, they are either of these.

The problem with the Tokai lawsuit stuff was Trademark, (Design Trademark more specifically) infringement in the USA, not Copyright. The are mixed easily, Copyright covers lyrics, photos, drawings, slogans etc.

I maintain buyer beware, although, not all of these sellers are bogus, I'm sure.

Peter

 

[bunbury]

Hi Stratmoto

I agree.

I contacted the seller in advance to ask if my guitar was a genuine G*bson. His reply: "Do not be afraid. It is imitate G*bson. Not real G*bson." So, whatever the crime, it wasn't fraud.

Also, according to Parcelforce, the cost of sending 5 kilo package TO* China is ?95. So, the guitar is only worth ?50, maybe a lot less. Maybe they can make them for ?10 or less ... worth thinking about if ever you buy a genuine Gibson-made Chinese Epiphone for ?350.

Richard

* OK that's the wrong way - so some dodgy research there!

 

[stratmoto]

"Do not be afraid."

I nearly soiled myself, classic

Peter

 

[bunbury]

.. and just what I wanted

In my near-forgotten youth there was phrase beloved by a certain type of salesman: "Buy this and break the ice at parties" (there's another dodgy sales claim). Well, at long last I've found something that delivers. All I need now is a party.

I'm traveling for most of the next two weeks, I could post pics (here) or e-mail pics if anyone is interested.