Gibson Historic pot/cap upgrade

[markcus58]

I am searching for any insight on upgrading a '08 Love Rock LS-100Q (LS-5) to a Les Paul Historic set up for the pots and caps.. Dr. Vintage has a pre-soldered drop in kit, and I have seen other kits with Bumblebee caps too. My Love Rock now has the Tom Holmes PU's.

Is there any tone or sound benefit ?? or any good reason to just stick with what I have...
Here is a pic of what's inside now.

 

[Mick51]

The religious wars are about to commence, I see.

You have so-called 60's wiring - tone cap is attached from the volume pot lug where the p/up attaches to the tone pot wiper lug. As you turn down the volume, you are rolling off excessive amounts of highs, and the tone gets muddier.

If you attach the tone cap to the middle lug on the volume pot, where the output wire runs to the p/up selector switch, you won't roll off treble as you turn down the volume. This is the so-called 50's wiring.

Alternately, leave everything like it is, and solder 1000 pF cap / 220k resistor (in parallel - wrap the leads together first) across the two non-grounded lugs on the volume pot, and you bleed a bit of highs across from the input to the wiper. Slightly changes the volume and tone taper on the pots, but not much.

Lots of pros and cons, but either is an improvement over what you have now.

Personally, I use Sprague black beauty, or Vitamin-Q caps for the tone caps. Just a personal preference, since I have some old stock.

For me, I would slightly mod the existing wiring before I spent $50 - $100 on an "upgraded" wiring kit. Let your ears tell you what you need. But, if you have Tom Holmes p/ups, you had better be getting good tone. I have a set, and they are nothing short of fantastic.

 

[markcus58]

Thanks Mick for identifing what I have inside and for the recomendations.
Now a couple more questions.
Are there any benefits to upgrading the pots over the stock ones to CTS or similar ? (as supplied with the kits)
Additionally, are there real benefits to upgrading the caps you those you mention or to the other hign end ones available.
I was attracted to the advertisement for the Gibson upgrade kits in hopes of get closer to the Gibson vintage sound. But I admit that I do not have the knowledge to fully understand the electronics interactions, differences in quality parts or wiring revisions.

A few bucks this way or that will not have a bearing on the decisions as I feel it is best to get "very good or best" whenever possible.

 

[loverock proud]

Talk to Billy @ RS Guitar Works

 

[Paladin2019]

Thanks Mick for identifing what I have inside and for the recomendations.
Now a couple more questions.
Are there any benefits to upgrading the pots over the stock ones to CTS or similar ? (as supplied with the kits)
Additionally, are there real benefits to upgrading the caps you those you mention or to the other hign end ones available.
I was attracted to the advertisement for the Gibson upgrade kits in hopes of get closer to the Gibson vintage sound. But I admit that I do not have the knowledge to fully understand the electronics interactions, differences in quality parts or wiring revisions.

A few bucks this way or that will not have a bearing on the decisions as I feel it is best to get "very good or best" whenever possible.

Five years ago I'd have told you that without a doubt you would notice an improvement with a wiring upgrade. Now... I've learned a few things and cooled down on the whole "tone quest", so take my opinion in that context.

CTS pots are considered the best guitar pots you can buy. You may notice a small reduction in noise and a small improvement in tonal clarity, but they are favoured on technical rather than tonal grounds. Disadvantage - they don't fit Tokais without expanding the pot holes a little bit. Also their rotation is quite a bit more rigid than stock pots which is good if you like your pots to stay put, but bad if you like to move them quickly with a gentle flick. Go for them based on these factors, not tone.

Caps, as far as I'm concerned, make no difference in sound and high end caps are a complete waste of money. Any decent quality cap will do the job - don't get anything better than Sprague orange drops. As I've said recently, caps are wired to ground - you never hear the part of the signal that passes through them!

You will get much, much more tonal improvement from reconfiguring your current components that you would from direct upgrading. Mick's suggestion of the 50's wiring would be my first choice. You can use the treble bleed trick (cap & resistor) either with your current wiring or with the 50's, so if you find that the 50's mod is still too muddy when you roll off the volume then give that a try with it. A little tip - you can use any cap value from 100pF-1000pF and any resistor value from 100k-200k depending on your preferences. The resistor just alters the pot taper to compensate for the new cap. Higher cap values retain more treble, but start to add brightness to the overall tone IMO. Small values don't add brightness in the same way but don't preserve the treble as well when you roll off the volume. Find a balance - I use 500pF caps with a 130K resistor.

With holmes pups your guitar probably sounds better than most gibsons already, so don't get bogged down in the minutiae!

 

[JVsearch]

The above:

Just remember - it's his opinion/experience only, not the gospel truth. There's nothing wrong with trying a few things to see if you can hear a change that you like.

Regarding pots, it had become common to change the pots on Gibson LPs (including Historics) because Gibson often used pots that were not 500K, many were in the 300k range. So, stick a 500K pot in there and the humbucker brightens up a bit, especially for those who actually use the pots. Now, Tokai and the rest seem to use proper 500K pots, but over the years the manufacturers of pots including CTS have changed the taper to save money, and now a true old style "guitar taper" pot will set you back a fair bit of cash. There's got to be some reason why people will pay $600 for the pots out of a '58 LP.

Have a look at a pot for 55 euros:
http://www.banzaieffects.com/Guitar-Pots-c-454.html

Caps, well, a friend put a set of vintage Bumblebees into his R9 and it did make a difference, but probably because the caps had drifted way out of spec more than anything else, but it sounded better. The point is, it worked for him with his guitar, so you may find some stuff you like as well for your set-up.

I do agree on the 50's wiring though.

 

[DaveWW]

I fitted these with good results

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200308469835

Preassembled also available if your lazy.

The pots seem to be available seperately from here

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/products.asp?id=45000


Dave

 

[Paladin2019]

There's nothing wrong with trying a few things to see if you can hear a change that you like.

Agreed. Just try to be objective (easier said than done, believe me) 8)

 

[JVsearch]

There's nothing wrong with trying a few things to see if you can hear a change that you like.

Agreed. Just try to be objective (easier said than done, believe me) 8)

You're right, and it's even harder to be objective when you just dropped a bunch of money on a "boutique" upgrade! "I spent all this money, so it must sound better"... :-?

Our man should be OK with that wiring kit mentioned above - about $30 and using pots that Mojotone publicly claim to be produced to their spec with a better taper. Probably a good upgrade.

 

[markcus58]

Dave WW,
I have emailed the BCS guy and am considering that route. A question I have is the Mojo Vit T caps. The Mojo website offers three different ones with identical numerical values yet differenct prices.. Overall you are pleased with the pot tapers and tone? Did you have to enlarge the openings for the pot shafts ?
I intend to go the full route and replace to Switchcraft jack and switch. Thinking that if I am in there I should do the full monty and not look back.

Second choice now it the RS kit. It has a more tailored CTS pot set and caps, with the Switchcraft jack and switch too. And it is a full service company with a history knowledge base that must be considered.

I will go with the vintage wiring scheme, no doubt.

I like to tinker (cars and guitars) so I may go on to tuners and bridges later....

 

[Paladin2019]

I intend to go the full route and replace to Switchcraft jack and switch. Thinking that if I am in there I should do the full monty and not look back.

The switchcraft jack is fine, but the switch won't fit a Tokai. Buy an allparts EP 0067 000 switch, it has the same mechanism as a switchcraft but a longer screw thread to fit MIJ guitars.

 

[DaveWW]

Dave WW,
Overall you are pleased with the pot tapers and tone? Did you have to enlarge the openings for the pot shafts ?

Yes overall I'm very pleased with the pot tapers and tone. Most of the volume control is at the top end of the scale but thats fine when you get used to it and the tone control is a lot better. Yes I did have to enlarge the holes slightly. Ref. the 3 mojotone prices for the same Vitamin T caps - I have no idea why there seems to be three prices for the same spec cap :-?

Dave

 

[AlanN]

One great tip I saw was to buy a few caps in different ratings and of differing manufacture, bind them to a piece of cardboard and label them (use electrical tape or similar). Then solder a couple of wires with mini crocodile clips on each end. You can then swap them out on the fly and see what works for you before settling on something permanently.

 

[Anonymous]

Where does one obtain a mini crocodile clip from?

 

[AlanN]

Anywhere that does electrical bits, like, say, caps?

http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/Connectors-Single-Pole/Test-Clips/Miniature-crocodile-clips/63865/kw/mini+crocodile

 

[markcus58]

Off on a bit different note.. I noticed that when the high E string crosses the saddle and bends down towards the stop piece it comes in contact with the saddle frame outer edge. Checking another guitar with a similar saddle / bridge I saw the same. I cannot believe this is correct. That what is correct is the string traveling untouched from the stop peice to the tip of the saddle.
Is the fix as simple as raising the stop piece to raise the string angle thereby creating a gap between the string and saddle frame ?

A quick search on the net did not reveal a spec on this angle or amount of clearance.. Just that the steaper the better..

 

[JohnA]

'The steeper the better' is not true, it needs to be steep enough to provide good contact with the saddle, but if it's touching the bridge it's too low. I normally have my tail-pieces 3-5mm from the body.

 

[leadguitar_323]

I agree with John, if the steeper the better was true then why do plenty of people top wrap? As long as you have good contact with the bridge saddles the angle is less important, just raise the tailpiece.

Mick

 

[Mick51]

String contacting the back of the bridge frame promotes string breakage.

Like the gentlemen say, you need a shallower string angle. If your bridge is at the height you want, you can raise the tailpiece. Or, you can top-wrap.

 

[marcusnieman]

String contacting the back of the bridge frame promotes string breakage.

According to Dan Erlewine in one of his fantastic guitar care books, you want enough clearance between the string and bridge to just slip a piece of paper between them. I've always used that method.