3.920 gr - 8.64 pounds Tokai, what kind of wood is it?

[Axchisler]

So what else can be done with all the heavy bits? Well, my opinion is that they should be used to make furniture or other wood things, and all the light tone wood should be reserved for guitars!

Cheers to that! Or use them in piano's, they're already heavy, what's a few more pounds? "Pardon me, I'm off to play the grand piano." :wink:

Here's an article if anyone's interested, I hope he uses the heavy bits for the bar...

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/African_Versus_Honduras_Mahogany.html

African Versus Honduras Mahogany
Woodworkers compare the grain characteristics, color, and machinability of different Mahogany varieties. November 19, 2005
Question
I am going to build a bar using either Honduras or African mahogany. My supplier has told me I can save significant money by using the African variety. Does anyone have any experience with the African variety? I know over time Honduras ages to a much deeper color than when it starts out. Is this the case with the African also? Any help with this would be appreciated.

Forum Responses
(Architectural Woodworking Forum)
From contributor A:
We have used 1000's of bd/ft of African for exterior millwork in the past 5 years. The most obvious issue with African is "ribbon striping". This is when the grain switches back and forth every four inches or so. It looks very attractive as veneer on furniture, but it is a real pain to mill (tearout). I've had my distributor sort out the ribbon stripe. Color wise it?s usually a pinkish/purple. I would recommend using a dark stain.



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From contributor R:
I?ve used African before, and the main problem I had was checking that only showed up after the finish was applied.

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From contributor G:
I've used a great deal of African, and am fairly happy with it. Contributor A and Contributor R mentioned a few of the problems. It can get "stringy" when machined. I also have seen stress cracks that run perpendicular to the grain.

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We use a great deal of quartered, because it has the ribbon striping on the face. I personally think the grain looks much nicer in "ribbon". But, Honduras can have that look too. I just don't see it as prevalent. I wouldn't hesitate using it again.

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From contributor W:
Stringy - you got that right. I was recently dadoing 3" wide African mahogany on my router table. Once I was finished, the bottom of the dados were so stringy and rough that it took over two hours to get them sanded smooth and not to mention all the fuzz and stringy material in the router collet and bit. It seems to me that that species always seems to have high moisture content and it seems to bow quite a bit after being ripped to size. It?s always a gamble. I don?t really like it but it does finish quite nicely.

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From contributor J:
I have inspected, bought, sold and machined both species for over thirty years. The guys that said it is "stringy, tears easy, etc...." are somewhat correct. Actually if all of your knives are sharp and your machinery is well maintained, you will not have those problems. African gets somewhat darker, but takes 15-20 years before you notice it. Also, to anyone who gets his/her distributor to lay out the "ribbon stripe", your distributor gladly does that. It brings a premium of anywhere from $600-$800 more. Almost all "true mahogany" moulding is African, but the laymen/general public has no idea.

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From contributor P:
Availability is the biggest issue here, along with price. I've had poor luck with the lighter colored mahoganies and I?ve had them fuzz from machining. Neither is very stable - rip a board on your table saw and watch it snake every which way. Spanish cedar is a pretty good cost effective option.

Comment from contributor M:
I have used a lot of both species. The African does not hold its color very well. When it?s exposed to light it will fade a lot more than the Honduras. The Honduras is heavier and finishes better, and probably is more stable. I do not want to use the African because it will not match the existing Honduras.

 

[leadguitar_323]

They are mostly opinions and really don't hold much weight. Going by some of those comments its not seasoned either because they mention moisture content, its completely different for guitar making lumber because it has to be completely dry. Honduras mahogany probably does have a higher moisture content because Honduras has a much higher annual rainfall than the African states that grow mahogany probably making Honduras mahogany heavier when cut but this would change considerably once dried.

Mick

 

[Axchisler]

They are mostly opinions and really don't hold much weight. Going by some of those comments its not seasoned either because they mention moisture content, its completely different for guitar making lumber because it has to be completely dry. Honduras mahogany probably does have a higher moisture content because Honduras has a much higher annual rainfall than the African states that grow mahogany probably making Honduras mahogany heavier when cut but this would change considerably once dried.

Mick

There are a lot of facts here too, mostly machining, which means nothing to us, but facts nonetheless.

I worked in the custom furniture building business for a time and I can tell you they are just as finicky about woods and dryness as guitar manufacturers. They are total snobs, often a-holes to work for, but know their craft well. These individuals are not your average Thomasville builders, they know woods as well as anyone, the only thing they don't know is tone :x . Considering the guys above are using Honduras or African, says they take pride in their craftsmenship. There are much cheaper alternatives. The opinion in the last post about H being heavier than A, you can rest assured he has seen more samples than all of us on this forum combined. I'm not saying it's heavier, who cares really? I just like the way it looks., as well as walnut. Which is more important in high end furniture than guitars, unfortunately. Simply, it's just a bigger market. I wish they would buy up all the heavier wood that our guitar mfg's don't want, but quite frankly, it's not pretty enough.

 

[Axchisler]

Mick, refer back to page 3 that has a pic of the back of the V I made using Honduras Mah. Show me some pics of African that look as good and I'll build you one... based on my opinion of course! 8)

The thru neck had to be from quarter sawn for stability, so ignore that feature. :roll: Thanks for all your help in other threads! Keep rockin!

 

[leadguitar_323]

The back of my LS-180 looks similar to the back of your V, nice big swirl through it but the back of my other LP with Honduras is straight as an arrow, both are very nice. Check out Marcus's SG on page 4, now thats pretty A mahogany.

Mick

 

[Johny642000]

Found this very interesting piece while surfing this afternoon and though it might be of interest to followers/participants of this thread....

John.



http://luthiery.co.uk/2009/03/08/why-gibson-sucks-right-now/

Pro Guitar Luthier says:
September 13, 2009 at 5:00 pm
For the prices Gibson charges for a Les Paul you should be getting the best made guitar on the Planet! Unfortunately Gibson only survives because the ?Brand Name? was long ago synonymous with great innovation & being the best. Well Gibson innovation died with the creation of the Les Paul in the 1950?s. & Gibson has gimmicks like a ?self tuning? Robot Guitar (more stuff to break down) & the current Gibson?s Les Paul Standard is made of cheap tone dead wood so instead Gibson chambers the body, using pieces of wood instead of a solid chunk of quality Mahogany. Gibson uses fertilized ?speed grown? Mahogany & Maple, and uses a machine / kiln that dries the wood in a matter of hours. This produces an inferior heavy weigh finished product that is much less than quality old growth Mahogany that is seasoned for years. Gibson has very inconsistent & poor quality control. Even many of the ?Gibson Historic? issue Les Paul guitars have multiple defects like partially swiss-cheese chambered bodies, binding & finish defects, and off center bridge alignment; all for prices reaching $5,000 and higher! Wow!

There are much better quality brand Les Paul style guitars being crafted today. Many guitar luthiers at some time or another have found Japan crafted guitars to be far superior in quality than the Gibson USA made guitars. For example the Fujigen Gakki guitar factory in Japan uses very high grade ?old growth? Mahogany & Maple in the production of their guitars that is naturally seasoned & dried for a period of 5 years or longer. The older growth wood such as old-stock African mahogany or hard Maple produces a lighter weight finished product that is far more musically resonant than ?speed dried? wood. Gibson uses cheaper new wood kiln cured in a matter of hours, that is why a Solid body Gibson weighs around 10Lbs compared to a Solid Body Japan Les Paul that may only weigh between 8.5Lbs to 9 Lbs, and also sounds tonally dead. Also Gibson has very poor fit tolerances when assembling the neck of the guitar in the body, and most Gibson Les Paul guitars under $5,000 have a poorly fitted ?short Neck tenon?. Remove the neck humbucker of a Gibson Les Paul, and you will find no visible ?tenon? in the neck cavity. The poorly fitted neck to body fit of the Gibson greatly reduces tonal resonance & diminishes sustain! (This is NOT how Gibson made Les Paul guitars in the 1950?s!! The Japan crafted Les Paul style guitars are most all made with a ?LONG neck tenon? that is clearly visible in the neck cavity of the body. Also, the Japanese carefully fit the neck to the body of the guitar using the tightest tolerances possible producing far superior tonal resonance & sustain all for about $700-$1200. Fuji Gen Gakki in Japan currently crafts Les Paul guitars under the Brand Name ?History? & ?FGN? or ?Fujigen. There are many used ?lawsuit? or vintage Japan Brand name Les Paul guitars far superior than anything Gibson has made in the last 40 years. You can find some super high-quality vintage Japanese brand Les Paul style guitars on Ebay such as Greco, Orville, Yamaha, Burny, and even some Epiphone Les Paul guitar that were ?Made in Japan? all for a fraction of the price of a junk Gibson. This is why Gibson continues to file lawsuits against Paul Reed Smith, and the many others, because Gibson can?t handle their competition making a FAR Superior guitar for a much more reasonable price tag! P.S if you find an Epiphone Les Paul with a ?open-book? shaped headstock, it was likely made in Japan using the same quality as described above. The Epiphone Les Pauls with the Open-book shaped headstock were all crafted in Japan by Fujigen Gakkii, however these are very rare as most Epiphones are made in Korea.

Beware the Chinese & Korean manufactured guitars don?t come close those made in Japan. However, even the Chinese & Korean made guitars are beginning to surpass Gibson in quality, and give more bang for the buck. Although the Chinese & Korean guitars are not the greatest yet, the quality control & craftsmanship is becoming very advanced, and in some cases you may find your $500 Korean Epiphone playing better than a $3,500 Gibson Les Paul Custom!
Yes Gibons Sucks in a very bad way!

 

[leadguitar_323]

There is a few threads on the forum that state this and even one from a long time Gibson employee, basically saying exactly the same things..

Mick

 

[JVsearch]

That post is at least 50% hyperbole or personal back lash.

Just to pick on two things - there are no weight relieved Historics, but there are chambered Historics that are sold as such, they are called Cloud 9s or CR8,9,0

We know from Tokai that you don't need a long tenon to get a guitar with good sustain - so it is something else that is wrong with Gibson's neck joint.

This makes me lean more towards the feeling that some of what this guy is saying is either made up or just repeated from the internet.

In my opinion he is spot on about the wood and all the weight relieving on the USA line, and it's been happening since the mid 80s.

 

[leadguitar_323]

We know from Tokai that you don't need a long tenon to get a guitar with good sustain - so it is something else that is wrong with Gibson's neck joint.

Yeah, the whole joint is crap. Have you seen a LP standard neck joint ? Like the author said, these joints are sloppy as hell, they have a curved bottom on them so they can get the neck angle correct and have gaps all round, what he says referring to the neck joints is spot on. There are a few threads on here with pics.

The top pic is the LP standard and the bottom is a Historic.
The standard even has a maple strip under the fret board instead of mahogany, they were cheaply made pieces of crap. I have read also that there were some guitars that were that bad they wouldn't sit properly in their cases because of bad neck fitment. They even glue a piece of wood in front of the joint so it isn't visible from the pickup cavity.
These pics were originally on the Gibson site but created an uproar so they were removed..

Mick

 

[Amo]

Anyone owning any 8 pound African Mahogany LP, please rise your hand

My LS1000 is exactly 8lb

 

[Si Pie]

:wink: I was looking for the "flogging a dead horse" emoticon....

Mick

Stolen from another forum I post on.

I like this one better though

 

[Axchisler]

We know from Tokai that you don't need a long tenon to get a guitar with good sustain - so it is something else that is wrong with Gibson's neck joint.

Yeah, the whole joint is crap. Have you seen a LP standard neck joint ? Like the author said, these joints are sloppy as hell, they have a curved bottom on them so they can get the neck angle correct and have gaps all round, what he says referring to the neck joints is spot on. There are a few threads on here with pics.

Mick

**** nice piece of info there Mick. Now that's forum dedication, Mick sawed his guitars in half just so we can be well informed 8) (need a better emoticon here, right Si Pie? Those above are hilarious!) We'd be better off with a bolt on LP. :-?

 

[ganzua]

Gibson uses fertilized ?speed grown? Mahogany & Maple, and uses a machine / kiln that dries the wood in a matter of hours. This produces an inferior heavy weigh finished product that is much less than quality old growth Mahogany that is seasoned for years.

I had heard this before and probably it is another good point.

Regarding the creepy tenon picture, I do not catch how they manage to fix the neck with a curved bottom joint like that. Once they get a right neck angle, how do they fill the gaps? with glue?

 

[Diamond]

Don't worry, Mick didn't saw his guitars in half, Gibson did. ..can you believe they allowed this photo to leave their factory premises and find it's way onto the internet?

 

[JVsearch]

Regarding the creepy tenon picture, I do not catch how they manage to fix the neck with a curved bottom joint like that. Once they get a right neck angle, how do they fill the gaps? with glue?

I fear they don't fill the gaps with anything and just let the glue joint at the sides hold the neck in. That photo has been around for a while, and I guess it was used to show how great the Historics were, but somebody didn't realise how much damage it might do to the USA line.

AFAIK there have been some models that didn't use that joint though, such as the LP Studio Lite, SG, LP Jnr double cut, but I don't know what years. Also, today Gibson have put a long tenon joint on the LP Traditional (although some people had other views of that joint...).