1981 Tokai LS-60 Love Rock = ?What Should I Expect?

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Mono said:
If it is Tokai Love Rock and Les Paul shaped and has a poly finish it has to be either a LS60 OR 50.
The fret edge binding you are describing is hard to picture... Can you upload some photos or send some to me and I can upload for you? My junk email address is Brian dot mageel at Gmail dot com
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in Mono :)
I don't have any doubt it is a 1981 Tokai LS-60 Love Rock Model:
It has a 1981 serial number.
It has a 2 piece/center seam back, spec for a 1981 LS-60.
It has an ultra thin poly top finish (I tested the finish).
It has the oval sticker just under the seven digit serial number with the number 60.
Those attributes alone pretty much give it away & it was sold as a LS-60 so, no surprise on model number/grade, IMO.

The LS-60 is supposed to have fret ends installed over the binding. The typical method is to radius the fingerboard & the binding @ the same radius. Lots of manufacturers do this and it's not complicated whatsoever, if done correctly. When done correctly the fret seats snugly across the entire radius. I have seen vintage Tokai examples, among many other brands, that have this installation done perfectly. I have never seen this method of installing frets leave remnants of binding that could be confused for remnants of FEB, when done properly.

I can think of only two possibilities that could potentially explain the presence of the binding remnants that look like FEB at the fret ends, on this LS-60.
Neither scenario makes any logical sense but I assume (just about) anything is possible. One scenario makes less sense than the other.
Both scenarios are speculation but I can't think of other scenarios that may explain the situation.

1. The neck originally had FEB. Why would I say that? Obviously because of the binding bits at every fret end that look like the remnants of FEB.
This scenario however seems least likely, IMO. If this were the case the original frets would have to be removed to level the tops of the FEB down even with the fret board height. Then a re-fret would have to be done. Again, this seems highly unlikely, although completely possible.

2. The binding edges were rounded in an over radiused fashion, compared to the fingerboard radius, leaving the binding remnants at each fret end.
IMO this explanation seems the more plausible of the two.
Having said that, why would a manufacturer that has already perfected the fret over binding type installation take such an approach & then follow that up by allowing such an example out the factory door?

So, I'm going with scenario 2, only because that seems more plausible & for no other reason.

AFA my new acquisition, I don't think it will be costly to remedy the high fret ends but it will take some time, as the work will be detailed & tedious.
Most likely scenario will be to use a fret hammer to seat the fret ends & then use an end file to smooth the fret ends & a few of the binding bits at the fret ends.
Still planning to get a minimum of two opinions before I proceed but I will likely do the work myself. :)
 
I'd agree with scenario 2. Normally there is filing to flatten the binding edges between the frets to flatten the edge of the binding. This results in what naturally looks like a raised step under the ends of each fret. I think that is what you are describing. I've seen people speculate before about this but is a common feature of guitars that are fretted over the binding.
 
So, I finally got around to assessing the issues with the fret ends on this (otherwise) excellent 1981 Tokai LS-60 Love Rock Model.
There are two issues with the fret ends:
(1) many of the fret ends are not properly seated on the fret board
(2) many of the fret ends have sharp, jagged features

As far as the first issue, I used a magnifying glass to get a better view of what is going on.
When I press the fret ends down, they will sit flush against the fingerboard but when I release pressure on the fret ends they pop back up.
I assume that possibly the fret tangs, at the very ends of the frets, may have been cut short, from the binding edge.
I could try to glue the fret ends but I'm not going there. I am leaving them as they are.

As far as the second issue, I located a very inexpensive file; it actually cost .85 cents.
I could have purchased a Stew Mac fret end file for $16.17 but I thought I would give the .85 cent file a try, first.
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/types-of-tools/files/fret-end-dressing-file.html
Today, I dressed all 22 fret ends on the treble side of the neck with my .85 cent file, and this seems to have worked wonders. 8)
This weekend I will file all 22 frets on the bass side of the neck, and then use a Dremel buffer to finish the fret ends.

This is tedious work but it will cost me basically nothing, which is much cheaper than taking the guitar to a repair shop.
DIY :D and save $$$ 8)
 
Hi guitar hiro. I would love to see pictures.

I too was on photobucket but recently started using imgr and it works well and is free.

And, with the FEB, that indicates a higher end model obviously. Wonder what the story was there? Would be cool to hear from some of the folks that worked at Tokai re mismatched guitars going out the door. I’ve owned a couple that are headscratchers.

Anyway, hope it sounds good. Would love to see pictures.
 
Sigmania said:
Hi guitar hiro. I would love to see pictures.

I too was on photobucket but recently started using imgr and it works well and is free.

And, with the FEB, that indicates a higher end model obviously. Wonder what the story was there? Would be cool to hear from some of the folks that worked at Tokai re mismatched guitars going out the door. I’ve owned a couple that are headscratchers.

Anyway, hope it sounds good. Would love to see pictures.
Click to expand...

Harold aka wulfman hosted & posted a pic of the top in another thread here @ the TF. Thanks Harold. :)
Hopefully this link works. https://www.flickr.com/photos/wulfh/48434438841/

As far as the condition of the fret ends being raised, sharp, jagged, dangerous, etc., and then throw in the neck binding anomaly, I'm still confused. I also have never seen such a clean example but the fret ends could explain why it may have been tossed aside & remained basically unplayed for decades. The crazy clean, under bed condition of this example is stunning.
I have owned my fair share of Tokai LS & LC models, some with FEB & some without, and this is the only Tokai example that I have ever encountered with this set of issues. As far as that goes, I have had many different guitar brands through my hands, and I have never seen this issue with fret ends & the binding on any other brand. Whatever happened with the frets & the binding on this example, it is truly anamolous in my experience. It's a head scratcher for sure. But I have taken care of the dangerous fret ends issue with my trusty .85 cent file, some time, some patience, and a Dremel. :)
 
Wow!!! You may have answered this earlier, but is that a solid top?? :eek: You scored!

I wonder if someone saw that top and assumed they were building an LS100 or higher and put that binding on then planed it off when they realized it had a two piece back and put a 60 sticker on it? I dunno. I’m guessing wildly obviously.

No matter what, you have a beast. And if you re fret it one day you can plane it down smooth.

A beautiful mystery for sure.

By the way, I love the anomalous Tokais. Makes them even more special among special guitars.

Enjoy!
 
Hey Sig,
It's a solid top; no doubt.
Of all Tokai LS examples I have seen in person & online, vintage & modern, this top is one of my favorites.
I have seen a very few LS-150 & LS-200 examples that I like just as much.
The only thing this LS-60 top could have more of is more fleck but it has everything else in spades; flame, figure, birds eye, annual ring, and of course it does that phantom 3D thing like crazy when it moves around under light.
It does have one small bit of fleck located in the large bout, surrounded by 200 to 300 hundred, tiny birds eye.

If I keep the guitar long term I would like to have the fingerboard re-fretted, along with new binding with FEB. :)
I think the instrument is certainly worthy of the effort & the expense that would lend itself to.
 
Oh, now that is interesting.... rebinding the fret board with FEB. I didn't realize that was even possible.

I have that LS100 HOG that someone re-fretted and planed off the FEB on. I may take that guitar to my grave. Plays and sounds like a dream. Would be cool to one day have FEB on it again, but obviously not a big deal to not have it. I sold a 1983 LS80 with a solid flame top and a two piece back to pay for it.

Again, congratulations!
 
Out of curiosity, as I am trying to figure out a pattern in headstock material, does your headstock have a plastic veneer or can you see wood grain under the black paint?
 
Sigmania said:
Out of curiosity, as I am trying to figure out a pattern in headstock material, does your headstock have a plastic veneer or can you see wood grain under the black paint?
Click to expand...


This 1981 LS-60 has the black paint on the head stock face, where you can see hints of the wood grain underneath.
Don't recall if I mentioned it, or not, this is a regular production example with the stamped serial number aka it is not an inkie.
 
I see you have the LS-60 listed as,

Wood veneer:
LS60 (1981) guitar hiro

but it has no veneer, and no plastic piece; only black paint on the head stock face.
 
Yep. I was thinking that myself, but I realized there has to be a veneer since you have three pieces of wood. If you just paint the neck, then you would see the seam over time I believe. I think the veneer is very thin and was sanded along the edge so it’s incredibly hard to see.

It’s not conclusive but I think likely. I will adjust it to a question mark or painted wood/wood veneer.

Have you checked your guitar? I looked in the truss rod pocket of my 1983 LS120 and it’s not clear.

I wonder if you pull a tuner out of the headstock and see if you can tell in the cross section?

mdvineng had suggested a scrape of the paint inside the truss rod cavity.
 

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