japanstrat
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What's a long tenon.
A standard modern Gibson short tenon has no part of the tenon visible at all in the pickup cavity.
Basically the long tenon everyone knows that extends into the neck pickup cavity is only a small bottom bit of the tenon known as a tongue.
The tongue is not for sustain but to add a bit of reinforcement to the neck joint to make it stronger.
In the bodies neck pickup cavity a tongue hole is routed to accept the tenon tongue.
The tenon can be precut to form the tongue so that the tenon tongue fits tightly into the bodies tongue hole and the main part of the tenon ends up flush with the fingerboard edge of the neck pickup cavity when the neck is fitted and then the tenon tongue top can be made flush with the pickup cavity bottom by a bit of routing if needed.
This is used on early Original Gibsons, Gibson Historics, Edwards, Orvilles, Mint Collection Grecos etc.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/rgrafend/lon320.jpg
So the tongue of the tenon you see extending into the pickup cavity is only a small 5% or so of the whole tenon.
If this 5% of the tenon that's in the pickup cavity has any effect on the tone or sustain than it must be minor.
At http://www.chrissnider.net/temp/73lp_necktenon.jpg
you can see how deep the tongue tenon bit is.
In this image Gibson used the pre sawn tenon no tongue technique for the tenon where they pre saw the tenon length to be flush with the top fingerboard edge of the neck pickup cavity after the neck is fitted but they also had a pickup cavity tenon hole routed in the body for the other technique of fitting a pre sawn tongue tenon but didn't fit a tongue tenon.
The tongue tenon hole inside the pickup cavity would be filled by maybe 5% of the total tenon.
The tenon that doesn't extend at all into the pickup cavity and has no tongue but is still visible in the pickup cavity (unlike the Gibson short tenon) is a long tenon that has been cut to length (pre sawn) to fit flush with the top fingerboard edge of the pickup cavity when it is fitted.
This technique doesn't need any tongue tenon hole routing in the body.
This is used on some 1970's Gibsons and Burnys and the Greco tenon and dowel joint where the tenon is flush with the top fingerboard edge of the pickup cavity and there is no tongue extending into the pickup cavity.
The dowels are just for a bit of reinforcement and aren't really necessary but add strength.
http://www.cosmikdebris.co.uk/pics/doweltenon.jpg
At http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/273544/tenon.jpg
the top one is a Gibson short tenon that goes nowhere near the pickup cavity and the bottom one is a Gibson long tenon.
None of the Orville by Gibsons or Orvilles are like the Gibson short tenon.
I suppose you could call the OBG's or Orvilles that have a shorter bit of the tongue tenon in the pickup cavities medium long tenons and the other ones that have a longer bit of the tongue tenon in the pickup cavities long tenons.
The only reason for the tongue is not for sustain it's to provide a bit of a stronger neck joint to prevent breakage.
The dowels in some of the Grecos and Burnys do the same sort of thing.
When you take the neck pickup out, if you can see any wood not belonging to the body in the neck pickup cavity then that means the tenon extends to the neck pickup cavity.
If any tenon extends to the neck pickup cavity then it is a long tenon.
A short tenon stops before the neck pickup cavity and is not visible in the neck pickup cavity.
If the tenon has no tongue but the tenon wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity then it's a presawn long tenon but some people might call it a medium tenon but it's not.
The Gibson people call it a long transitional tenon to differentiate it from the tongue tenon.
The difference between this tenon and a tongue tenon is only the small piece of tongue wood which is only there for a bit of reinforcement.
The small bit of tongue wood does not define a long tenon.
A long tenon is any tenon that's wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity.
If the tenon has a tongue extending into the neck pickup cavity it's a long tenon and it's used on the original Gibsons.
If only body wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity then it's a short tenon as used on modern Gibsons.
The short tenon stops well short of the pickup cavity and therefore can't be seen in the neck pickup cavity.
http://latesixtieslespauls.com/images/tenons%20lpf.jpeg.jpg
The top one is a Gibson pre cut short tenon and the tenon stops well short of the pickup cavity.
It's used on most modern Gibsons.
The middle one is a pre cut long tenon with no tongue that's called a Gibson transitional long tenon from the early 1970's.
It's also used with some Grecos and Burnys with and without dowel reinforcements.
The third one is a precut long tenon with a tongue.
It's used on earl original Gibsons, Gibson Historics, Orvilles, Greco Mint Collections, Edwards, Epiphone Japan etc.
Most of the tenon is under the fingerboard for a Les Paul and the tongue in the pickup cavity is a very small part of the tenon and is about 1/4" thick.
The tenon on a Les Paul Historic "long tenon" is about 4 1/4" long, 3 1/2" of which is under the fingerboard, and the remaining 3/4" extends past the end of the fingerboard into the pickup cavity and is only a 1/4" thick "tab or tongue" which may or may not have any sustain effect.
The tenon on a "transitional long tenon Les Paul" ie 1969-72ish is under the fingerboard and ends at the end of the fingerboard or at the start of the neck pickup cavity and is about 3 1/2" long.
The tenon on a current Les Paul "short tenon" standard is under the fingerboard and ends well before the end of the fingerbard and is about 2 5/8" long.
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127408
A standard modern Gibson short tenon has no part of the tenon visible at all in the pickup cavity.
Basically the long tenon everyone knows that extends into the neck pickup cavity is only a small bottom bit of the tenon known as a tongue.
The tongue is not for sustain but to add a bit of reinforcement to the neck joint to make it stronger.
In the bodies neck pickup cavity a tongue hole is routed to accept the tenon tongue.
The tenon can be precut to form the tongue so that the tenon tongue fits tightly into the bodies tongue hole and the main part of the tenon ends up flush with the fingerboard edge of the neck pickup cavity when the neck is fitted and then the tenon tongue top can be made flush with the pickup cavity bottom by a bit of routing if needed.
This is used on early Original Gibsons, Gibson Historics, Edwards, Orvilles, Mint Collection Grecos etc.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s253/rgrafend/lon320.jpg
So the tongue of the tenon you see extending into the pickup cavity is only a small 5% or so of the whole tenon.
If this 5% of the tenon that's in the pickup cavity has any effect on the tone or sustain than it must be minor.
At http://www.chrissnider.net/temp/73lp_necktenon.jpg
you can see how deep the tongue tenon bit is.
In this image Gibson used the pre sawn tenon no tongue technique for the tenon where they pre saw the tenon length to be flush with the top fingerboard edge of the neck pickup cavity after the neck is fitted but they also had a pickup cavity tenon hole routed in the body for the other technique of fitting a pre sawn tongue tenon but didn't fit a tongue tenon.
The tongue tenon hole inside the pickup cavity would be filled by maybe 5% of the total tenon.
The tenon that doesn't extend at all into the pickup cavity and has no tongue but is still visible in the pickup cavity (unlike the Gibson short tenon) is a long tenon that has been cut to length (pre sawn) to fit flush with the top fingerboard edge of the pickup cavity when it is fitted.
This technique doesn't need any tongue tenon hole routing in the body.
This is used on some 1970's Gibsons and Burnys and the Greco tenon and dowel joint where the tenon is flush with the top fingerboard edge of the pickup cavity and there is no tongue extending into the pickup cavity.
The dowels are just for a bit of reinforcement and aren't really necessary but add strength.
http://www.cosmikdebris.co.uk/pics/doweltenon.jpg
At http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/273544/tenon.jpg
the top one is a Gibson short tenon that goes nowhere near the pickup cavity and the bottom one is a Gibson long tenon.
None of the Orville by Gibsons or Orvilles are like the Gibson short tenon.
I suppose you could call the OBG's or Orvilles that have a shorter bit of the tongue tenon in the pickup cavities medium long tenons and the other ones that have a longer bit of the tongue tenon in the pickup cavities long tenons.
The only reason for the tongue is not for sustain it's to provide a bit of a stronger neck joint to prevent breakage.
The dowels in some of the Grecos and Burnys do the same sort of thing.
When you take the neck pickup out, if you can see any wood not belonging to the body in the neck pickup cavity then that means the tenon extends to the neck pickup cavity.
If any tenon extends to the neck pickup cavity then it is a long tenon.
A short tenon stops before the neck pickup cavity and is not visible in the neck pickup cavity.
If the tenon has no tongue but the tenon wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity then it's a presawn long tenon but some people might call it a medium tenon but it's not.
The Gibson people call it a long transitional tenon to differentiate it from the tongue tenon.
The difference between this tenon and a tongue tenon is only the small piece of tongue wood which is only there for a bit of reinforcement.
The small bit of tongue wood does not define a long tenon.
A long tenon is any tenon that's wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity.
If the tenon has a tongue extending into the neck pickup cavity it's a long tenon and it's used on the original Gibsons.
If only body wood can be seen in the neck pickup cavity then it's a short tenon as used on modern Gibsons.
The short tenon stops well short of the pickup cavity and therefore can't be seen in the neck pickup cavity.
http://latesixtieslespauls.com/images/tenons%20lpf.jpeg.jpg
The top one is a Gibson pre cut short tenon and the tenon stops well short of the pickup cavity.
It's used on most modern Gibsons.
The middle one is a pre cut long tenon with no tongue that's called a Gibson transitional long tenon from the early 1970's.
It's also used with some Grecos and Burnys with and without dowel reinforcements.
The third one is a precut long tenon with a tongue.
It's used on earl original Gibsons, Gibson Historics, Orvilles, Greco Mint Collections, Edwards, Epiphone Japan etc.
Most of the tenon is under the fingerboard for a Les Paul and the tongue in the pickup cavity is a very small part of the tenon and is about 1/4" thick.
The tenon on a Les Paul Historic "long tenon" is about 4 1/4" long, 3 1/2" of which is under the fingerboard, and the remaining 3/4" extends past the end of the fingerboard into the pickup cavity and is only a 1/4" thick "tab or tongue" which may or may not have any sustain effect.
The tenon on a "transitional long tenon Les Paul" ie 1969-72ish is under the fingerboard and ends at the end of the fingerboard or at the start of the neck pickup cavity and is about 3 1/2" long.
The tenon on a current Les Paul "short tenon" standard is under the fingerboard and ends well before the end of the fingerbard and is about 2 5/8" long.
http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127408
