Odd (Non CN) No Prefix Serial Numbers, Chinese? 2015, 2016

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Sigmania

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Collecting these.

I thought these were Chinese because they seem to date to after production moved to China, but oddly they follow the Korean serial number scheme.

Orders and possible quantities?
August 2015 (50)
January 2016 (20)
July 2016 (160)
 
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For those of us not living in Europe and may not know what this symbol actually means, it is a European Conformity mark. It does not mean the product is from China though they often are. But that is because of the prevalence of Chinese imports. Could also be Korean,....

images.png
 
Cool. If these serial numbers are date codes as well, then the order they made that month (July 2016) seems to have included at least 160 pieces as your serial number seems to indicate. These are big orders.
 
A friend used to work in the Far East, sourcing manufacturers for a US air conditioning company. He encountered cases where factories continued to produce – and a former distributor continued to sell – units bearing the US company's brand. When I worked as an audio and broadcast technology journalist in the 1990s, it was widely believed that Chinese CD plants tended to 'forget' to turn off the machines once the once the official production quality was reached. This tends to confirm that this kind of behaviour is relatively common.

It would be very interesting if anyone can map out the complete supply chain, ie, which stores they ended up in, who the distributor was, and which plant the instruments came from.

My bass ended up in a pawn shop based in Bournemouth. As soon as I got my hands on it, I began to suspect that some of the 'after-market' parts were not fitted by a former owner, but were actually put on in the factory, with the intention to make a new instrument look used.
 
I noticed that a bunch of the examples I posted from Reverb were sold by one vendor:

k0tqcwlgoxkaixctrlic.jpg

kfwguitars

Walsall west midlands, United Kingdom
 
And I still don't know if these are Chinese or Korean, but the serial number pattern is very similar to other Korean ones I noticed.
 
For the purposes of continuing this discussion without misunderstanding, there are a few distinctions I think may be useful. (I'm not suggesting these terms are universally adopted, BTW. I'm just trying to be clear about what we're trying to say.)

"Never officially imported into…" conveys to me that an instrument was, for instance, only intended for the home market in Japan, but has been personally imported by a musician. For instance, a guitarist in the US might buy a Tokai on-line from a dealer in Japan. This may make it the only such Tokai in the whole of the US, and it could never be described as "new", but it is still a legitimate Tokai instrument.

"Parallel imports", or "grey imports" refer to goods bought in quality by a dealer in one territory from a distributor in another territory, who was not supposed to sell them outside the agreed national borders. These may be regarded as genuinely "new", and also as authentic product from the branded manufacturer. (They may not have the same level of after-sales support as the ones supplied through legitimate channels.)

"Unauthorized" instruments are – I infer from your usage – made by plants who were making licensed product at one time, but are now making instruments bearing a brand they are no longer entitled to use. These instruments might look totally authentic, but may or may-not conform to the original brand's specifications, and will not have passed that brand's QC. If that dubious provenance can be proven, these instruments are not legitimate.

"Bootleg" products are made by factories who have no connection with – still less licence to manufacture for – the brands they show on the product. For instance, "Chibsons" have no legitimate claim to the Gibson brand, and their guitars are usually only rough approximations of the real instruments. They're fakes. However, I have also heard multiple claims of fake Epiphones. While they're worth less money, they're also easier to copy…

Out in the real world, the problem we all face is it's getting harder and harder to tell these categories apart. There are people creating convincing copies of '62 Fender Strats apparently worth $20,000, so who am I to call "fake" on an instrument that may or may-not have come from a factory that was making legitimate Tokais at the time?

This isn't some grandstanding rhetoric from me: I'm struggling with how to deal with the whole genuine/fake issue.
 
I was just thinking one thing and now I am having to reconsider.

I just took a look at what I believe are the legit AST and ATE guitars made in this period in China and just realized the serial numbers on those are the same scheme....

CN Serial Number Fender Copy Guitars

So I have no idea. They could be legit.

Unfortunately, Tokai has done little to clarify the nature of their off shore production so we are left to feel our way through the dark.
 
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I've already learned a lot from this forum – and this thread in particular – for which I'm grateful. The conclusion I've come to is that the instruments with serial numbers correct for Tokais have undoubtedly come from factories that have made them for Tokai at some point. Chinese fakers don't bother copying serial number formats, and there are documented cases of multiple 'Strats, all with the exact same serial number. Also, the quality of the bass I have is very good, so I don't think it's a bootleg product.

Whether the instruments in question were officially sanctioned and sold by Tokai we can probably never know. All the illicit factory would need to do to avoid detection is reuse the serial numbers of instruments already in circulation. The chances of anyone handling so many Tokais – not to mention meticulously logging the serial number of each – as to spot a duplicate, is pretty remote. This forum may eventually encounter duplicates, if enough owners submit the numbers, but it seems like a long shot.

As for determining country of origin, that also seems an impossibility, beyond it's either Korea or China. Much of what I've read here seems to point to Korea, but it sounds like more of an educated guess than a certainty.

We can't blame Tokai for keeping the origin of its instruments close to its chest. After all, there must be many competitors who would like a heads-up as to which plants can be trusted to do a good job!
 
Thanks for being such a good sport. I am leaning towards Chinese after taking a second look at the CN serial Fender clones.

If you ever get detailed pictures under the hood so to speak, and were willing to share them, that could help advance overall knowledge of Chinese Fender clones.

There just isn't a lot of info around as most collectors have overlooked these, but I believe that will change over time.
 
This bass is currently for sale on eBay, from a UK seller. It's very similar to the one I bought recently. Details they have in common include the colour and the Badass bridge. There's something else they have in common, and this is a strange one. My bass has a coloured paper dot on the top tuner, and so does this. However, mine is red and this is blue.

My bass is the authentic Fender head shape, whereas this one is the later Tokai shape, which I believe is sold into the US and UK for the purposes for avoiding trademark infringement. Perhaps the colour-coding is there to tell the packers which models go to each territory?

One thing striking my bass has that this doesn't is a serial number! There's none visible in the pictures of the back of the head, or the neck plate, so I don't think it could have one at all. Is the omission accidental or deliberate? We'll probably never know.

As for "open heart photography", I'm willing but not under the scratchplate/pickguard today. What I can tell you is the neck pickup route isn't anything like as close to the pickup and the bridge, but it's not just a crude rectangle either.

Jazz head.jpgJazz body.jpgNo Sno.png
 
I don't own one of thee, but it looks like the serial numbers are applied over the finish, so I would assume they are easily removed if someone is determined.

The sahpe of the headstock makes it an AJB (American market).
 
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I don;lt own one of thee, but it looks like the serial numbers are applied over the finish, so I would assume they are easily removed if someone is determined.

The sahpe of the headstock makes it an AJB (American market).

The s/no on mine is deep under the lacquer. We normally only see the 'modified' head shape over here in the UK, going back since the late 1980s, but I think mainland Europe sees the original profiles. Picture below isn't great but it shows the fairly crude routing, the colour coding of the two pickups (black for ground, red for neck hot and yellow for bridge hot), and the superb pots you can expect to receive with one of these instruments. I have three CTS pots in front of me and a soldering iron. I think you can guess the rest…

You can also see what I think of Badass bridges, because my bass now has a Wilkinson with brass saddles. I haven't weighed this instrument, but I can see no incentive to make it heavier than it needs to be. The bridge it came with reads:

"Manufactured and distributed by Leo Quan Inc. Recommended installation by a professional guitar repairman." Back in the 1970s, I was a trained maker and repairer of brass(wind) musical instruments, so I think I might have just about enough skills to swap one 5-screw bridge for another. ;)

JS electrics.jpg
 
Cool. Looks like mini pots. I see those on Korean and Chinese models.

Are there any sort of codes on the pots?
 
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