MK2 pickup modification

[MattThorpe]

Couple of years ago when I first got my LS80 I found the MK2 Tokai pickups to be rather unbalanced in that the neck pickup was far louder than the bridge. I stuck with them for a while. I liked the MK2's better than the Mk1's in my 2008 LS150. I had changed the bridge pickup in the LS80 to a Seymour Duncan Custom SH5 which is wonderful. The Mk2 bridge was too thin sounding and seemed to run out of steam when you dig in for a solo.

So the MK2 bridge was lying around and I got to thinking could this be modified ? I'd read about changing magnets. I had an unused set of epiphone pickups and checking the strength of the magnets of known magnet types in my guitar collection I determined that the Mk2 pups were probably a very weak Alnico2 and that the Epi pups were Alnico 5.

So I replaced the magnet in the Mk2 bridge with the one from the old Epi pickups. Not a straightforward task. The effort is worth it though.
What a remarkable difference this has made. The new hybrid pickup was tried on my Gibson Les Paul as I had to remove a friends pup I was trying out anyway. The new PUP really does sound so much better. Very chimey but with ringing sustain and mid growl and all the note clarity of the original.

I left the cover off for now. By the way the coils are black inside.

Anybody tried any mods to Tokai pups of their own ?

 

[Amo]

I did the Peter Green magnet flip to the pickup on my LS1000, it sounds great now, a lot more useable in the middle position.

Great idea changing the magnets though

 

[JVsearch]

Did you feel that the pickup got louder? Also the cover does have an effect on the sound of a humbucker, so that's something to bear in mind.

Is there any increase in initial pick attack with the pickup now?

 

[MattThorpe]

I would say it's slightly louder but more importantly somehow it's fuller. Playing live when you attack hard it now delivers where previously it felt like you reached a point where there was no more to be had beyond which it was hard work! It sounds gorgeous in the two pickup position - even though I didn't do the Peter Green polarity swap! Playing riffs around the first and third frets with both pups gives that Robben Ford type growl - love it.

Yes I've dabbled with covers on and off before. I may try it with the cover on again - though I didn't on first test because I wasn't sure it would sound any good at all !!

 

[Paladin2019]

I found the MK2 Tokai pickups in my LS80 to be rather unbalanced in that the neck pickup was far louder than the bridge.

Out of interest did you try adjusting the heights of the pickups before shelling out for new ones?

 

[MattThorpe]

I found the MK2 Tokai pickups in my LS80 to be rather unbalanced in that the neck pickup was far louder than the bridge.

Out of interest did you try adjusting the heights of the pickups before shelling out for new ones?

Haha! Of course I did - first thing I did when I got it home !!
The guitar was out of the box in the shop and the neck pickup was slung just below the pup ring and the bridge quite near the strings. Presumably an attempt by Tokai qc/setup to balance things up. It seemed odd so I raised the neck pup to the ring and it sounded ok at home - when I got to a rehearsal with it the balance was all wrong - neck was just way louder. They are not great pickups IMO ... though I like the Mk2 in the neck it's still in the guitar. I just balanced it up with more power in the bridge. I have found Gibson stock pickups are far better than Tokai ones though we all know the Tokai guitar is better than the Gibson !

 

[Paladin2019]

Haha! Of course I did - first thing I did when I got it home !!

It's amazing how many people don't bother! Considering the difference it can make to the output, balance and even the voice of the pickups it should always be the first thing to do. 8)

The low neck pickup thing is normal. It looks odd because the pickup rings are unusually tall, like the original gibsons were.

 

[MattThorpe]

I've been checking out magnet types in more detail and it seems the ex-Epi magnets I used for the modded Mk2 bridge pickup are ceramic. The other thing is that they are not as wide and a little taller than the standard 2.36in x .5 in x .125 inch used in most humbuckers. (originally Gibson used 2.5in magnets, Tokai use 2.36in). The non standard magnet I used means that on the 'slug' side of the pickup the magnet does not physically touch the slugs though this does not seem to be a problem. Also I had to put extra spacers in to level up the base plate and the coils.

Another thing to note is that there is only a minute presence of wax in the Mk2 pickup - Tokai or whoever makes them probably dip just the coils.

The modded pickup is now back on the LS80 form where it originally came.

I've now put the cover back on the pickup . This did not really affect the sound too much, possibly a slight loss of top end.

I have to say that both clean and distorted this is now one hell of a good pickup.

I made a second one out of Tokai Mk1 bridge pup and the other Epi magnet which has completley transformed my Ibanez AR300 guitar.

I'm going to get some proper sized magnets and try them out - I'll report back on the results.

 

[shan564]

I've seen some tutorials online explaining where to connect an extra wire if you want to convert a 2-conductor humbucker to a 3-conductor for a Jimmy Page-type configuration... has anybody tried that with the MK2?

 

[MattThorpe]

I've not tried this but when swapping magnets I noticed there are two short wires one from each coil that are joined together and taped and they are tucked between the two coils.

This must be the series connection between the two coils. If you solder a wire to this joint then simply switching it to earth will short out one of the coils giving single coil operation.

OR - If you seperate the wires and connect a second two wire screened cable - one core to each and earth the screen to the backplate then you have three wire pickup.

You would have to seperate whichever coil is connected to the back plate earth and connect an additional wire to that to give you a full four wire pickup enabling phase switching etc.

 

[MattThorpe]

Finally received some magnets took an age to arrive. I said I'd report back on this so here goes ...

I put a Ceramic8 into the Tokai Mk2 bridge pickup on my LS80 with the cover off. This sounds absolutely awesome much better than the undersized Epi ceramic magnet I had codged in the initial experiment. This is going to be terrific for blues and classic rock stuff I'm doing. The two pickup sound with the unchanged Mk2 bridge is lovely and smooth.

I then set about a pair of Tokai Mk1 pickups originally on my LS150.
The magnets in the Mk1's are very weak. When lifting with a small screwdriver the field won't even support the weight of the magnet.

In the bridge I put a polished Alnico 5 with the cover back on, and in the neck a rough cast Alnico 5 and left the cover off. These are currently installed in my Ibanez AR300 which I use for experimenting on ! I can't put this down now!
The pups sound so warm and full and clear just absolutely gorgeous. Add a little distortion and this is vintage territory especially the bridge pickup which moans and growls on the low notes and sings and screams on the highs just like a Les Paul should but all with a lovely smooth edge - never harsh ! Clearly Tokai came up with a great coil/pup design but skimped on the magnets.

 

[mattim]

I would like to hear some sound samples in this kind of thread.

Matti

 

[MattThorpe]

I would like to hear some sound samples in this kind of thread.

Matti

Yes I intend to do a YouTube video or two of the results of this when I find some time this weekend. I'll post some links up here soon.

I just put a polished Alnico 5 magnet in the Tokai Mk2 neck pup on my LS80 -with pup cover - this is now sounding fuller and slightly brighter and sweeter with better definition in the bass end. The Tokai magnet I took out was about as strong as the new A5, may even have been an A5, but the new one sounds so much better.

 

[Diamond]

Matt

So how about you start modding them and we sell them...we'll call them the "boutique modded" MK2's, these guys will pay big money for them...we'll make a killing.

 

[JVsearch]

Very interesting stuff here, I bet a lot of the boutique pickup makers started out doing what you're doing!

It would be great if you had some clips eventually, definitely let us know if you get it done.

 

[MattThorpe]

Ok got a video done of the modified Mk2 pickup set.

Bridge is a 2.5" Ceramic 8.
Neck is a 2.5" polished Alnico 5.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ufs9RAOKDE

Does anybody have any official information about the Tokai Mk2 pickups ? ie what magnets, inductance, resonant peak etc.

From what I have seen the backplates are nickel silver as are the nickel plated covers which are also very thin as they should be. This gives maximum transparency. The original magnets are polished Alnico and from the power of them probably Alnico 5 but it's very difficult to tell since magnets can have different charge levels. One thing I noticed about one of the Tokai magnets was that the field was stronger at one end. My compass used for testing polarity wouldn't point to the middle ! I think the pickups are good but the original magnets are not so good.

 

[Diamond]

What a great tone...it's not often you hear a Les Paul with that type of clarity.

What are the main differences you hear between the stock MK2's and your modded set?

 

[messer]

Hell yeah man I'm not into gear or mods etc, it bores me. But your playing is great! Keep On Rockin'

 

[MattThorpe]

The stock mk2's were quite good pickups and I liked the neck enough to keep it in the LS80 when I had changed the bridge to a DiMarzio.

This is all subjective because it depends on what you play through and what you play. If you always play 'Fender Clean' the original Mk2's have enough to have you drooling over the tone. If you play say a blues style with a hint of distortion to warm up the sound the Mk2's may suffice. If you play say Blues Rock/Classic Rock with lot's of soloing you need a pickup that gives you more fluidity to make it less hard work. The original Mk2 bridge doesn't really carry it especially in a band situation. By fluidity I mean that the pickup and distortion characteristic carry a note's volume to the start of the next one when using the same pick intensity.
Of course you can use a booster pedal for taking a solo using the bridge pickup, in which case the Original Mk2 is probably fine as is. I don't tend to use pedals. Also you could turn the vol down on the neck side but I don't like doing this as you lose tone.

The Neck:
1. Originally too loud to balance with Mk2 bridge - still a little loud so suspect the coil windings - Tokai used a weaker magnet than I have done to replace it. A more powerful magnet brightens up the sound OR you can put less turns on the coil to brighten up the sound. The Mk1 neck pickup I have sounds nicer and it's DC kohms are lower suggesting fewer turns on the coils.
2. A little muddy on bass end - the new A5 has corrected this
3. Slightly dull treble end - the new A5 has added enough top end to improve the treble even with the cover on.

The Bridge:
1. Slightly scooped mids - The new Ceramic 8 has a tighter bass response and more midrange focus. Being a more powereful magnet enhances brightness with the 12.7k coil.
2. Originally not as loud as neck - the Ceramic 8 has made the bridge louder.

Much of the above really depends on where you set the pickup height. I tend to set mine for maximum output with the bridge louder but not so near that it sounds harsh and squacky! Also I'm currently using .046 to .009 strings on this guitar there is more string energy on the bass side than say a regular .042 to .009 set.

The above is just my opinion and it's difficult to explain subtle sound charateristics in words or indeed the changes to the feel of a guitar just because you are hearing a different sound from it !!

 

[Diamond]

Great post, Matt.