LS120 solid or laminated?

[villager]

if you know what your looking at 1 or 2 mm is pretty obvious actually...

if the 1980 and 79 catalogues also state laminate top then thats a different thing altogether, but I dont think they do...

I think most 79 were solid , and most 80, but in 81 the proportion changed ..I have seen more laminate 81's than others, but again I have seen solid 81's ..I actually have one here now...

 

[MIJvintage]

dream on, dream on, dream on, dream on, dream until yo' dream come true aka keep dreaming :lol: ....................

 

[TOKAI JOE]

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13557

8) guys, see how thin the laminate is here actually.......
do you think if this thin or even thinner sheet is on your ls120
then be able too see it when its all covered up by the finishes?
its only the world of 1mm to 2mm from the top surface.
this is how thin the world of the laminates on the japanese gtrs.
i think its very difficult to proove that there are more than some
exceptional ls120s that have the solid top. i think all the ls120 is
the laminated top basically like the catalogs and the tokai man
always clearly has said........


8) sorry just my opinion again here........j

@ "big ed" from germany just did the greco egf850 restore project post
the link above and there he showed us how thin the veneer was.
i asked him how thin was it and here is what he found out.
its only 0.5mm plus 0.75mm so 1.25mm only!!!!! my tokai man
was always sayin something very similar about its the 1mm world and
tokai's veneer was even thinner than others. so the tokai veneer
must be really the 1mm world or possibly even less than that.
so how could we see it really when its all covered up by the finish
and when it looks the same color since both the veneer and the solid
base wood parts are both maple????? i think we better surrender
by now mostly. dont deny the few units that could be the solid top
but for all the rest. villager. tell us the veneer thickness on your ls120s
whether you think it exists in there or not personally. you know
pretty good about those gtrs but this one you gotta prove it really....
the clear pics and explanations please if you insist! thanks.....



The cover veneer from maple = 0.5 mm
The lower veneer from spruce = 0.75 mm

"big ed" describes it above........

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13557



8) j.

 

[bobwise]

Dang. My '80 LS120 does indeed have a thin veneer. The center seam matches the underlying maple cap and the grain matches closely enough that it's not obvious even on close inspection. The veneer is a little different in color but I thought that was due to the finish diffusing the light, or maybe because the edges of the cavities had been buffed/polished a little thinner than the rest of the finish.

But this thread prompted me to take off the neck pickup and scrape the finish on the edge of the cavity down to bare wood in a few places (it's already got some condition issues and I don't plan to ever sell it). Even then, it's not easy to see in some places and the glue line is invisible -- there's no dark line separating the veneer from the maple. It's a little hard to measure -- it seems to be closer to 1/64"/.4mm than .5mm but that minute difference could be due to sanding before finishing. Lots of people have trouble visualizing "1/64 of an inch" or ".4mm" -- it's about as thick as a good quality business card.

What really surprises me is that it's not the garish/bold, consistent/regular, "perfect" flame that I associate with veneer. It's got broad flame in places and tight flame in others, a "belt" of flame at a different angle than the rest of the flame, and lots of the flame drops out and looks plain from some lighting angles. The irregular flame is a big part of what attracted me to it -- "perfect" flame looks like furniture to me. You'd think that if they were going to go to the trouble of veneering they'd use a more spectacular veneer.

Ochay was sure it was a solid top when he sold it to me and I can't blame him for that. I was convinced it was solid until I scraped down and revealed bare wood. As you can see in this "before scraping" pic, it's not at all obvious with the finish intact.

My cheap camera can't do close-up macro shots so I can't show photographic proof, but there is a very thin veneer.

I'm semi-bummed out. If I had known it was veneered I'd probably have gotten a Goldtop or plaintop instead. Of course nothing has really changed -- it's still one of the best sounding guitars I've ever played and it's just as beautiful to me, but it's sort of like discovering that beautiful woman you took on a date doesn't really look like that the next morning without her makeup.

 

[RyanC]

thanks for the update bob - that is an absolutely gorgeous guitar nonetheless!

 

[TOKAI JOE]

if you know what your looking at 1 or 2 mm is pretty obvious actually...


@ NOT REALLY I THINK. 1 mm or 2mm? NOT PRETTY OBVIOUS WHEN
ITS ALL UNDER THE FINISH FULLY COVERED BY IT........


if the 1980 and 79 catalogues also state laminate top then thats a different thing altogether, but I dont think they do...


@ YOU JUST DONT THINK SO AND YOU SERIOUSLY DONT KNOW THEM
YET. RIGHT?


I think most 79 were solid , and most 80, but in 81 the proportion changed ..I have seen more laminate 81's than others, but again I have seen solid 81's ..I actually have one here now...

@ YOU THINK MOST ARE BUT DONT KNOW YET ACTUALLY. THE ONES
WHICH YOU INSIST THEY ARE THE SOLID CAN BE JUST POSSIBLY
THE LAMINATED YOU JUST CANT SEE IT WELL????



8) sorry villager but now your opinion started to seem........
ofcourse NOT trying to xxxx you or anything nothing here just
that today finally someone very brave gave us the great proof
here finally. i think more could follow if they try to see the truth.
super thank you for wisebob. you are a honest brave american!!!!!
thanks! and sorry villager, dont get pissed off nothing please.....






8) j.

 

[bobwise]

I'm sure everyone here is giving their honest belief. I honestly believed mine had a solid top until I scraped the finish, shined a flashlight on the wood and got up real close. I had to scrape several ares to convince myself -- the first area kind of looked like there might be a veneer, the second area looked like it was solid, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th areas finally convinced me. I think just about everyone would have believed it was solid looking at it with the finish intact. Most people wouldn't scrape away finish out of curiosity, and they really shouldn't on a pristine specimen.

In the picture of the pickup cavity, the light areas in places around the rim of the cavity aren't the veneer. It's a little thicker than that. Some of the light areas are reflections/highlights, others really are places where the buffing wheel cut through the darker part of the burst. Up until now, I thought that picture proved it had a solid top. Even in person, up close, and knowing the veneer is there, it doesn't look like it's veneered when it's covered by the finish.

On top of that, mine is a sample of one. I have no way of knowing whether it's common for them to be veneered or not.

It really is remarkable craftsmanship. And some people think plain tops sound better on average than figured tops, so I can tell myself it's the best of all worlds -- good looks and great sound.

 

[leadguitar_323]

AS long as your happy Bob, thats all that matters. The only thing that concerns me is that veneer tops tend to sell for a little less than solid tops.

Mick

 

[TOKAI JOE]

I'm sure everyone here is giving their honest belief. I honestly believed mine had a solid top until I scraped the finish, shined a flashlight on the wood and got up real close. I had to scrape several ares to convince myself -- the first area kind of looked like there might be a veneer, the second area looked like it was solid, the 3rd, 4th, and 5th areas finally convinced me. I think just about everyone would have believed it was solid looking at it with the finish intact. Most people wouldn't scrape away finish out of curiosity, and they really shouldn't on a pristine specimen.

In the picture of the pickup cavity, the light areas in places around the rim of the cavity aren't the veneer. It's a little thicker than that. Some of the light areas are reflections/highlights, others really are places where the buffing wheel cut through the darker part of the burst. Up until now, I thought that picture proved it had a solid top. Even in person, up close, and knowing the veneer is there, it doesn't look like it's veneered when it's covered by the finish.

On top of that, mine is a sample of one. I have no way of knowing whether it's common for them to be veneered or not.

It really is remarkable craftsmanship. And some people think plain tops sound better on average than figured tops, so I can tell myself it's the best of all worlds -- good looks and great sound.

8) right on wisebob........you are really brave n honest n humble this
time. thanks for your effort and the story. dont worry coz the gtr itself
LS120 is excellent so its easy to make good sense laters after all.
u know the truth feels better than the BS/lies. its always that way
sooner or laters. thanks bob. keep your ls120 precious! ........j





8) j.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

AS long as your happy Bob, thats all that matters. The only thing that concerns me is that veneer tops tend to sell for a little less than solid tops.

Mick

8) what you are sayin here is also right on mick. your kind word here...

 

[leadguitar_323]

Check your PM's Joe.


Mick

 

[TOKAI JOE]

Check your PM's Joe.


Mick

8) i just did my good buddy mickman. all replys and the funky gift
from me to ya on the way soon too! pretty hot here today. just
back from the barber and they were closed!!!!.....so ended up
eating at som good funky indian restaurant right next. it was
only $7 and pretty goooood! anyways gotta go back to haircut
again tomorrow or so and probably to that indian restaurant too!
talk more laters mickman. gidday! ... your good buddy joe japan.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

very wisebob's reality comment here.....


"Even in person, up close, and knowing the veneer is there, it doesn't look like it's veneered when it's covered by the finish."



8) this perhaps can be said to many high craftmanship japanese
laminated top guitars, maybe even mostly. tokai, greco, burny........





8) now we know it ........j

 

[villager]

Just to put an end to this once and for all.....

Joe, here is a LS-120 from 1980, SOLID TOP, there is no veneer, the grain in the cavity matches the grain of the top (see last 2 pics) , thats impossible for a veneer, I also filed some finish away in a pickup route, its one solid piece of maple top to bottom, I am 100% positive there is no veneer on this guitar....

look at the pics, and just accept that as proof needed,


I know exactly what a laminate top looks like, and once again I will say that there are both laminate and solid 120's, in approximately equal proportions, I have had over 70 1979-1981 LS-120's through my hands, and this is my experience, remember I take apart, inspect, classify and repair guitars all the time, so I know how to determine within 5 minutes if a top is solid or Laminate.. when you see enough of them its pretty easy for someone with experience to know.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

8) thanks very much for the pics villager. they are pretty good so now
we will examine them the best we could. thanks.

there is something on the top of the body wood which looks yellow
thats the finish only we think? but isnt there possibly the laminate
inside totally covered by the finish? greco's laminate is only 1.25mm
and the tokai's is even thinner i heard. so maybe less than 1mm
it actually is?? on some units its easier to see, on some units its
harder to see, on some units we cant even see it?? is this varied
fact that is confusing you possibly or making you assume some of
them are absolutelly the solid? i dont ofcourse deny some units
being the solid exceptions since the factory situation things.
but these top yellow 1mm or so part is basically what the laminate
is hiding in? are they what wisebob was talking about today??
sorry villager but it just looks like it to me based on everything
i heard so far. we need to examine your pics deeper and with
wisebob's precious sacrifice today, gotta get the best conclusion.

villager, i know you are very experienced with them but heres
one joke for you. my good buddy murray didnt think so about you
when he got a bad gtr from you. he is ok now and likes the gtr but
sure was xxxxxxx then. dont worry we dont talk about it here so u
stay cool. anyways thanks for the pics and your final opinion today.
i will try my best for a bit more on this.




8) j.

 

[TOKAI JOE]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

very wisebob's reality comment here again........


"Even in person, up close, and knowing the veneer is there, it doesn't look like it's veneered when it's covered by the finish."


8) its super hard to see it when its only less than 1mm or so and
when its totally covered by the finish........j


8) thanks villager anyway........

 

[Anonymous]

villager, i know you are very experienced with them but heres
one joke for you. my good buddy murray didnt think so about you
when he got a bad gtr from you. he is ok now and likes the gtr but
sure was xxxxxxx then. dont worry we dont talk about it here so u
stay cool.

You just did talk about it!

:roll:

 

[DaveWW]

I've got to agree with villager. A 1mm or so veneer is going to be fairly easy to see if you know what to look for. There are plenty of pictures (Grecco, Tokai etc) showing both solid tops and veneer on this site and you can tell the difference especially if you scrape away the finish on the inside of the cavity at the joint.

Dave

 

[villager]

villager, i know you are very experienced with them but heres
one joke for you. my good buddy murray didnt think so about you
when he got a bad gtr from you. he is ok now and likes the gtr but
sure was xxxxxxx then. dont worry we dont talk about it here so u
stay cool. anyways thanks for the pics and your final opinion today.
i will try my best for a bit more on this.

8) j.

joe, you can talk about it all you want, I have no problem with that..

the facts are....

He bought a 1981 LS-200, when it arrived he mailed me saying the bridge was bent, which I offered to replace, and there were a couple of dodgy frets, which was easily fixed, he actually did this himself, so not not exactly a big problem, and to say he got a ''bad guitar'' is untrue and misleading.......then you got involved telling him you had seen the guitar for far less than he paid for it in Japan, and he had paid too much....
this strangely happened after you had first threatened to ''kick my arse'' and then to ''get revenge'' because I disagreed with you in a posting..

those are the facts .


why are you now questioning my judgement on a guitar which I have had apart this morning, specifically to check if the top is solid..It is solid, I even filed off the finish in the cavity to check, yet you still suggest that I am wrong or ''confused'' .

 

[JohnA]

You can see the grain match on Mark's pics I'm certain that's a solid top.