Love Rock Neck Shapes & Thickness

[Sigmania]

The question of neck shapes gets asked a lot, and it is often hard to answer since Tokai has never published neck shapes on Love Rocks as far as I know other than mentioning asymmetric shapes on more recent builds.

So I wanted to start this thread to begin to gather that information.

Tokai has used CNC since the beginning of its Les Paul copy production.

I know some members like guitar hiro have been pretty diligent on getting measurements and maybe they will add their findings to the thread here so others may benefit from their work?

Similar thread on ST/TST models here.

Table from Beauty of the Burst shared by guitar hiro:





Let's begin.

Shape
2005 LS80S GT - Large C shape
2005 LS150VF - Large C shape
2002 LS320 VF - Flat C
2005 LS320VF - Medium C

Thickness (@ 1st /12th frets)
1981 - 23.65/25.13mm (LS100S settebello)
2009 - 22.81/24.68mm (LSS175)
2011 - 22.90/25.5mm (LS75)
2014 - 22.80/25.00mm (Diamond)

 

[Sigmania]

Regarding neck shapes: I had 4 Tokais til now, 2005 LS80S GT, 2005 LS150VF, 2002 LS320 VF and a 2005 LS320VF. They all had different neck shapes. The 150 and 80S had a quite lareg C profile, but not as big as you will find on a R8.
The 2005 320 had a somewhat medium C shape, round an full, but not fat. This was close to a Historic R9 neck shape imo.
The 2002 had a flat C (well, that's what I call it,-))), it's not a D, but not really a full C and has less shoulders than a 2010 R9 I had for comparison.

All in all, every Historic neck I came across seemed to be thicker than any Tokai neck, I ever played.

I also had the chance to play 2 original '59 Les Pauls, and their neck shape was also different from each other with one coming pretty close to the one of my 2002 LS320, but more round. But both necks were nothing that fat as Historic necks I came across.

What does that mean? Basically nothing, everything is possible, no neck is like the other when handshaping is involved. Basically, the shapes can be all over the place. Nowadays maybe within tighter tolerances, but still.

But I have to say, from all new MIJ Les Pauls, Tokai has to me the best profiles, because they tend to be always in a C shape, whereas Edwards, Epi Japan for example seem to prefer a flatter D shape. I hate a D shape on Les Pauls, but like it on hollowbodys, to each his own,-))) ....


Regards


Jonas

So:

2005 LS80S GT - Large C shape
2005 LS150VF - Large C shape
2002 LS320 VF - Flat C
2005 LS320VF - Medium C

 

[Sigmania]

From 2014

Currently Tokai have only one neck thickness, one neck width, and one neck shape.
Any differences you might measure or feel are random from the manufacturing process.
You can't order a custom spec guitar with a wider, fatter or thicker neck.

Neck specs.
22.8mm at 1st fret including fret height.
25.00mm at 12th fret including fret height.

 

[Sigmania]

I can agree with that, but here is some examples from my stock:

LS75 from 2011 in Black much like you said
22.9mm at 1st fret including fret height.
25.50mm at 12th fret including fret height

LS75 from 2012 Goldtop
25.00mm at 1st fret including fret height.
27.50mm at 12th fret including fret height

Too much difference as to random from the manufacturing process, isn't?
O.K., its NOS guitars from 2011-2012 and those guitars has never been shown in brochures.

 

[Sigmania]

My experience is they are not all the same. I had a 2012 LC-195 that was 25 mm thick at the 11th fret, much heftier than the 2010 LS-160 I owned which was 24 mm. That makes me doubt that all necks are exactly the same profile.

 

[Sigmania]

Different CNC profile cutter tolerances and varying degrees of finish sanding for each neck could account for
small dimensional differences of a mm or less, I suspect.

I wouldn't include frets in measurements, but a 2mm difference seems like a lot for the same model, regardless.

It is possible Tokai has a number of neck profiles programmed into their CNC,
since they produce a variety of necks for various manufacturer copies already, but using different profiles within a model line
seems really counter productive. :-?

 

[Sigmania]

I have owned a few vintage and non vintage Tokai LC, LS and LSS examples.
I have yet to come across a single example with what I would consider to be a, "big fat 50s neck."
My experience with Tokai ES examples is similar; I sold them all because the necks were thinner than I prefer.

I use a very accurate digital caliper to measure neck thickness at fret 1 and at fret 11; the same measurement locations as used in BOTB.
As a side note: some folks just measure neck thickness where ever the Hell they please; could be at the nut or at the neck heel. Over the course of ~53 years of dealing with guitars in general I have seen a huge amount of those within the guitar community that pretty much just make **** up and that has led me to conclude that there are many within the community that are either fairly brain dead, foist 'opinion' as technical fact, generally spew **** as gospel or all of the above. Beware of those folk.

Please see below a chart attributed to the book BOTB.
The Burst Neck Thickness Summary at the lower right of the data is a very handy resource IMO but the main chart is of course a more detailed data resource.
I have yet to experience a single in hand example from Tokai that would be considered, "a big fat 50s neck" based on the information in the chart below and based on the Tokai examples through my hands over many years.

Are there 'big fat 50s neck' Tokais out there?
That's a good question but I haven't seen any, yet.
Good luck .......


View attachment 29582

 

[Sigmania]

I once owned a 1980 LS-80 reborn old. First fret 22.71. 11th fret 24.94 mm.
Also a 2009 LS-150. 22.10 and 24.79

 

[Sigmania]

1979-82 Tokai LS-150 and LS-200 have fat necks also 1980-81 Greco EGF-1200/1800

All are at .89 or .90

 

[Sigmania]

Just measured the necks on my 1980 Greco EGF-1800, 1200, 1000 & 850 with digital calipers. The thickest neck was on the 1000 and the 1800 & 1000 were the widest. The measurements for all four were very close so I don't think the necks on the 1200 & 1800 models were particularly larger.

My 2005 Tokai LS-150 has the biggest & fattest neck of all my Tokai LPs. It's on par with the big fat Navigator NLP necks.

 

[Sigmania]

2009 LSS 175
22.81mm
24,68mm

1981 LS100S OR
23,65
25,13

 

[guitar hiro]

Below are the only neck thickness measurements I have for Tokai LS examples.
As far as 'vintage' Tokai LS I prefer inkie examples as these typically have thicker necks but not by a huge margin.

LS-50 #0003056 (inkie)
.875" @ fret 1
.963" @ fret 11

LS-50 #0103789 (inkie)
.874" @ fret 1
.999" @ fret 11

LS-60 #1010558 (embossed)
.854" @ fret 1
.908" @ fret 11

2000 LS-320
.844" @ fret 1
.929" @ fret 11

 

[Sigmania]

So half the folks are using metric and the other half are using imperial (inches).

Also some are using 1st & 11th frets, others 1st & 12th frets.

 

[chuckyz2]

My opinion on this comes from being OCD. Really OCD.
Measuring frets can and does throw the entire comparison off.
Frets can be and are different thicknesses from use and repair. Especially on vintage guitars.
I would only measure from the top of the fretboard if I wanted to compare.
If someone wants to add their specs, they should measure both ways or at least measure fret thickness and add that to their specs.
They should also list their results in metric and imperial. It will make it easier for many who are only one or the other. Better
one conversion made than many having to make many conversions over time.
I will start measuring mine when they get new strings and post them here.
From what I have read and heard over my short time in this luthier stuff is
that people with large hands like big necks and more spacing (wide necks) between strings.
And the opposite for those with small hands of course.
I like the tone of big necks much better and yes, it is very noticeable.
I have experimented with CS Tele that came with a baseball bat neck.
You can unbolt a Tele or Strat neck so it is a pretty simple test if you have a variety of necks to test. You have to be OCD though!
Thicker necks compared to thinner are very different where as maple boards compared to rosewood are very subtle.
So it is with the weight of the bodies. I have done those experiments also and the differences are night and day.
Not trying to hijack this thread, just to make an observation of why people shop for and prefer certain things and the
desire to know which brands/models have the qualities they desire.

 

[Sigmania]

I have been measuring from the fretboard to the back of the neck.

The tricky part is that my digital calipers are plastic and flex a little as you press on them. And it is a trick to find the greatest depth/ridge of the back of the neck.

So I look at these measurements as ball park rather than extremely precise.

I also tried using a contour gauge to show the shape of the neck at the different points. I found that interesting. It seemed like my soft V ST guitars had asymmetrical necks. Could just be me.

 

[chuckyz2]

Those contour gauges are pretty cool. The more info you document, the better.

 

[guitar hiro]

My opinion on this comes from being OCD. Really OCD.
Measuring frets can and does throw the entire comparison off.
Frets can be and are different thicknesses from use and repair. Especially on vintage guitars.
I would only measure from the top of the fretboard if I wanted to compare.
If someone wants to add their specs, they should measure both ways or at least measure fret thickness and add that to their specs.
They should also list their results in metric and imperial. It will make it easier for many who are only one or the other. Better
one conversion made than many having to make many conversions over time.
I will start measuring mine when they get new strings and post them here.
From what I have read and heard over my short time in this luthier stuff is
that people with large hands like big necks and more spacing (wide necks) between strings.
And the opposite for those with small hands of course.
I like the tone of big necks much better and yes, it is very noticeable.
I have experimented with CS Tele that came with a baseball bat neck.
You can unbolt a Tele or Strat neck so it is a pretty simple test if you have a variety of necks to test. You have to be OCD though!
Thicker necks compared to thinner are very different where as maple boards compared to rosewood are very subtle.
So it is with the weight of the bodies. I have done those experiments also and the differences are night and day.
Not trying to hijack this thread, just to make an observation of why people shop for and prefer certain things and the
desire to know which brands/models have the qualities they desire.

I'm pretty much OCD when it comes to certain attributes on the MIJs I have had in my hands; in particular fret size.

Being able to accurately determine fret width/height has been helpful to place rough time frames of manufacture for certain 'brand examples' that have no serial number, along with other attributes.

Frets can some times be puzzle pieces .......