1985 LS60 or LS80?

[ATO]

So Billy Gibbons owns a Tokai LS ? Wow !

Owned. He sold it via auction a few years ago, went for $30k. It was one of his main stage guitars from the late 80s into the 90s. He's playing it here...

Edit: actually it was eventually given to his long standing guitar tech and it was the tech who sold it at auction.

 

[ATO]

Don't know which model it is but the fingerboard looks to be ebony.

 

[ATO]

Found this vid on YouTube of a guy playing a stickered 1985 LS60. One piece back and it also appears to have FEB though it is hard to make it out for certain.

 

[ATO]

Had another look at this one. I think this guitar was intended to be an 80 but some reason was finished in poly and probably sold as a 60.

It has a one piece back but it has a line through the bottom half that looks like a joint but it's not perfectly straight and the grain runs right across it - it is the same block of wood on both sides. It also disappears for a couple of inches halfway across the back and reappears again. The line shows right through the edge on both sides, again not perfectly straight.

I think it's probably failed quality control for an 80 due to an imperfection in the one piece back but they decided make it good and put it out anyway, this would make sense given they seemed to be having financial issues around that time.

Maybe a nitro finish would have been less forgiving in this case.

 

[Sigmania]

Yep. That’s a crack.

I noticed something similar on a 1982 LS80 solid Flametop that I have. I looked at that crack a hundred times trying to decide if it was a seam. It’s also under the finish. Maybe intended to be an LS120?

 

[ATO]

Yep. That’s a crack.

I noticed something similar on a 1982 LS80 solid Flametop that I have. I looked at that crack a hundred times trying to decide if it was a seam. It’s also under the finish. Maybe intended to be an LS120?

View attachment 91523
View attachment 91524

Wow, that's a great top. It would make sense I suppose if an imperfection fails quality control, make it good and knock the price down.

 

[ATO]

Spotted this one on eBay in the UK, identical to mine:

S/n 5031028

For sale is a very nice playing 1985 Love Rock. Difficult to say which model it is but it seems to have mostly LS-80 specs, one piece body and frets nibs. I bought it as a bit of a punt but it has a 60s slim taper neck, and I prefer 50s profiles. The guitar is in pretty good shape other than the headstock break which makes me believe it’s not been generally mistreated over it’s life. The headstock has been totally stable in the time I’ve had the guitar and the truss rod works as it should. Light guitar for its type, under 9lbs. The guitar also has some modifications. It had replacement pots when I opened it up which I have upgraded to a Monty’s 50s wiring loom (CTS with paper and oil capacitors) with switchcraft switches and jack. It also has Gibson Burstbucker 1 and 2 pickups. Without the headstock breaks and mods these 1980s Tokai guitars fetch well north of £1000. The price here reflects the damage and non original state of the guitar. It comes with an extremely battered Gibson case. Will be shipped fully insured.

 

[Sigmania]

Looks like 503202x ??

 

[ATO]

Very hard to tell, my eyes see 5301 but I see 5302 too. I've asked the seller to confirm, hopefully he will.

 

[Sigmania]

I would point out that this is another 1985 anomaly.

This is the period when Tokai went bankrupt and went through reorganization. I will have more to say about this later, but it is clear that there were disruptions to production and all sorts of weirdness happening and guitars had a weird mix of specs in some cases.

Here is what I said earlier today in a thread about a 1985 LC60:

My first Tokai was a 1985 LS60 and a bit confusing as well. I ended up selling it and getting an earlier Tokai and have never looked back.

For reference here is a thread another member started with similar questions about his 1985 Tokai that led to realizing we both had 1985 guitars with newer pots and that also indicated a disruption in production in this 1985 period.

 

[ATO]

Seller confirms 5031028 - mine is 5031023

 

[ATO]

Looks like a batch - makes the theory that it was downgraded due to a defect less likely I would have thought?

 

[Sigmania]

I’m guessing someone screwed up. Maybe the way these were identified going into the spray booth? Or the guy in the spray booth although that seems less likely. That’s a skilled job and anyone doing that would be seasoned I would guess. Maybe mislabeled going in?

 

[Sigmania]

Actually nix that. In 1984 and 1985 the TLS60 and above had flamed laminate tops.

Confusing.

 

[ATO]

Certainly an odd one.

 

[Sigmania]

I just realized some thing. I think I’m a little bit slow. That Michigan accurate reproduction MAR pickup must mean Gibson copy. And the ones for the Fender type guitars that say CAR or California accurate reproduction are Fender copies.

 

[ATO]

Now I'm wondering if these guitars were actually old stock unfinished TLS80s from 1985 but actually finished in 1990. By that time they didn't have a nitro option so finished them in poly and possibly went out as TLS65.

Les Paul's were out of fashion by the mid 80s until Slash came along, which may be a contributing factor on top of the financial issues in 85.

 

[Sigmania]

For reference, this is the 1990 and 1991 catalog showing the LS range (LS55, 65 & 150). I have yet to find one of these LS150's from this period.

 

[Sigmania]

I am starting to think that what they did by 1990 was to try to start getting rid of dead stock. In some cases they may have re-packaged unsold guitars with snake skin for Ishibashi. Seems like they may have given them a good deal. The M'Seeker LC guitars that should have been 60,000 yen (Tokai's retail price) were being sold in 1989 for 39,000 yen based on this ad that @Shredder69 found. That means there must have been room for Tokai to sell them to Ishibashi and still make a profit, which to me says dead or discounted stock. That's my theory anyway.

 

[Shredder69]

I am starting to think that what they did by 1990 was to try to start getting rid of dead stock. In some cases they may have re-packaged unsold guitars with snake skin for Ishibashi. Seems like they may have given them a good deal. The M'Seeker LC guitars that should have been 60,000 yen (Tokai's retail price) were being sold in 1989 for 39,000 yen based on this ad that @Shredder69 found. That means there must have been room for Tokai to sell them to Ishibashi and still make a profit, which to me says dead or discounted stock. That's my theory anyway.

Absolutely. With a fast pace in the industry, I would assume that there were several deals made like this. For Fernandes we see stuff like the batch of late '98 Burny guitars that are very likely rebadged overstocks of Orville models from Fujigen, some STJ models from the summer of '88 that are likely Charvel overstocks from Chushin, some of the 90's strats/teles with Fender Japan like stamps (i.e. model designations that Fernandes never used) etc.