Why are vint. Tokais supposed to be better than t. new ones?

[johnnyl]

People consider first run Gibson Les Pauls or pre-CBS Fender Stratos & Teles much better than the new ones for example, but here we are talkin' about 40-50 years of difference with all the better wood timbers still available on the market, a much more handcrafted building process, etc...
But if we talk about '80s Tokais vs. new ones is there really any difference (e.g. better woods, higher specs), or is it all just a mojo factor (well, and maybe some wood ageing...)?
Just curious.

 

[togps]

..... or is it all just a mojo factor (well, and maybe some wood ageing...)? Just curious.

Yes, johnnyl, these are the facts. I ensure you that MIJ Tokais are still manufactured with the same love, craftmanship, skills and enthusiasm as in the past.







Tokais LS's in the past and nowadays, are a better 59 replica as the current Gibbsies.

Here a nice example of a G** Les Paul Standard - without maple cap.
- weight reliefs, short neck tennon. .... yeah I know, it is a shame

Gr??e nach S?dtirol

 

[Hot Rod]

Hello togps,

I always suspected that kind of mass production.... but never thought to see a closer pic !!
Where the hell did you get that pic from ???

Gibson is increasing the retail prices every year, but they're in lack of good , light ( therefore expensive ) wood !! LoL :roll:

Glad, I got my MiJ Les pauls .... :lol: :lol:

greetings, Hot Rod

 

[Blues Junior]

Hi, can you tell how do you say it's a real gibson? I mean on that picture? Is it your or...? Why wouldn't it be s SX? I don't think you are a liar but still it is hard to expect something like that from GIBSON!!

 

[supreme]

To be fair to Gibson, they only drill holes in the standard production models which they never claim to be replicas of the late 50s Les Pauls anyhow. So only the Gibson USAs have that. Customers want light guitars, so they make them light and send the more expensive high quality light wood to the Custom Shop.

Now the reissues (R#) at the Custom Shop are not drilled, they are promoted as replicas which they almost are.

 

[togps]

http://www.lespaulforum.com/faqpage.html#weighti

http://www.lespaulforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25151&page=4&highlight=weight+reliefs

Another sad example ....
made at the security entrance of the airport

:evil:

 

[magentaplacenta]

Cool photos!

 

[orvilleowner]

I thought Gibson charged extra for "Chambered" bodies (the Cloud 9 series, I believe they called some). :lol:

 

[supreme]

I thought Gibson charged extra for "Chambered" bodies (the Cloud 9 series, I believe they called some). :lol:

Yes, and they sound better than the USA Gibsons. It adds the same sustain characteristics as the semi-hollow bodies.

Chambered is something else than weight relieved. I tested many guitars with chambered bodies like the LP Supreme and that one was the best sounding guitar I have ever played (and I have also tested an original 1958 burst which was just average).

Also, noone could hear that a guitar is weight relieved. In fact most people did not know this until a few years ago, while Gibson has been doing it for at least a decade :wink:

 

[luis]

Pepe took those photos to prove it was true what everybody suspect and did the same with Historics stock capacitors.First people at lespaulforun didi not took credit but they agrre him at the end.I know Pepe and he is a knowledge persons.He owns several Historics and I proudly say I'm the cause he sold his LP Studio after trying one of my Tokais two years ago....

 

[Kappie]

Interesting discussion!
What puzzles me even more in the picture made by togps are the woods which have apparently been used. The colour of the wood of the body seems very light, even for unpainted mahogany. The colour is darker at the bottom of the holes and the cavities, so it looks that only the back is real mahogany. On the other hand, I could explain the darker colour of the cavities since the have been painted while the whole guitar was painted, but I can?t explain the darkness in way of the bottom of the additional holes. Anyone?

 

[Hot Rod]

Hi, maybe they artificially "fast-dryed" the woods and it's because of the bleeching during drying process that the color of the bodytop is so pale ?? :-? :-?

Or even worse....they match a mahogany back to a maple cap and laminate a veneer onto the whole thing :evil: :evil:

....Things ain't what they used to be .....glad I got my old-school MIJ Pauls


Hot Rod :wink:

 

[togps]

.... I proudly say I'm the cause he sold his LP Studio after trying one of my Tokais two years ago....

Bravo Luis, well done ...

 

[luis]

Thanks Gottfried,but he bought two Historics after that... :evil:
I couldn't convert him to the Tokai cause but he?s a good guy however.

 

[supreme]

More Tokais for us then :lol:

 

[larseko]

Interesting discussion!
What puzzles me even more in the picture made by togps are the woods which have apparently been used. The colour of the wood of the body seems very light, even for unpainted mahogany. The colour is darker at the bottom of the holes and the cavities, so it looks that only the back is real mahogany. On the other hand, I could explain the darker colour of the cavities since the have been painted while the whole guitar was painted, but I can?t explain the darkness in way of the bottom of the additional holes. Anyone?

Could the light color be the glue. I can't see any reason to fake the mahogany. It's not that expensive.

Interesting thread, by the way, even my Burny in the lower end (xx-55, I think) has neck tenon which is visible in the pickup cavity. It is light too, although I haven't checked for drill holes.

 

[bolero]

....so why does everyone cherish the old tokai's more than the new ones? is there a difference in construction?


I have never seen a tokai with an authentic old-style gibson neck-tenon. the neck is glued flush to the pup cavity, and when they route the cavity they fake the look of a tenon. maybe the LS320's are different?


one thing I do like about the Tokai's is the way they drill the wiring channels...the standard gibsons are all routed & there is a lot of wasted wood removed, the routes are huge in comparison. not to mention those weight relief holes 8)


far as I can tell, my '81 tokai wiring channel is drilled like the '50's gibsons. and the gtrs are solid wood...unlike the new gibson standards/studios. not sure about the new ones?

the inlays are sloppy on my '81 though.

otherwise it is a great gtr.

from what I know, I'd rate the tokai's less desirable than an historic, but better/on par with a new standard or '70's gibson ( pancake body )

 

[TSL]

Anyone else have any info about "Faked" tenon length?

 

[no soul]

Ive got an 81 LS80

I think to get this quality of materials on a modern tokai Id have to buy a much higher end model. Not to mention the laquer finish.

Granted, this may be off set by the ever increasing prices for a vintage Tokai, but I got mine for only 200USD from some burned out hippy (the original owner too).

 

[bruno]

bolero, you don't have to go very far to see a real tenon in a tokai, anything above a ls-125, has a true neck tenon, and not just the "faked" tenon cavity...

the same thing aplies for no soul, you don't have to go further than a new ls-125 to see a nitro finish, and excelent parts and wood quality... besides I'm not so sure an 81 LS-80 is finished in nitro lacquer to tell you the truth...