Tokai Breezysound TE-80 info please

[Peter Mac]

Hi guys,

From what we've learnt so far, Tokai did not start stamping the fretboard til after ser# 8002000.
Prior to that the model number was an ink stamp in either the neck pocket and/or the front pup cavity.

As (to date) there are no other 1978 TE series - of any description -that have been seen, and considering the departure from other 1978 features, the chances of this guitar being 100% 1978 is really incredibly unlikely.

Only Adachi-san could say for sure, but seriously . . . all the most knowledgeable Tokai enthusiasts are highly sceptical about your claim, this should be ringing alarm bells - not arguments.

For me, the body doesn't seem quite right but the serial number is really a concern (my impression is it has been changed)

Peter Mac

 

[Udonitron]

Here we go, I recall there being something under there but no wood spurs.
They are what appear to be, upon closer inspection (these are loafers), chisel markings that most likely were done to remove wood spurs after hand routing.
I am sure some will say someone nefariously removed the serial to hide theft but I see no traces at all of an inked serial and those chisel markings go over too far to the right where a serial generally doesn't reside.

 

[Udonitron]

Only Adachi-san could say for sure, but seriously . . . all the most knowledgeable Tokai enthusiasts are highly sceptical about your claim, this should be ringing alarm bells - not arguments.

For me, the body doesn't seem quite right but the serial number is really a concern (my impression is it has been changed)

Peter Mac

Enthusiasts is the key word however.
I am by no means an expert and others are more knowledgeable than I on the definitive known production models however we all gather our knowledge from catalogues, models owned, photos scrutinized over, and commonalities amongst all models and dates.
The real issue lies where something occurs that is out of the norm and one tends to immediately refute it 1st and when that happens tendencies seems to lean towards a mountain moving to sway an already establish opinion, me thinks.
Unless we had a former worker from the factory here to give us definitives we are all shrouded in what we already know and what lies outside the realm of knowledge and into the unknown.
That is where theories lie, right or wrong they are just opinions and ideas.
I mean via this discussion, or argument as you put it, Reborn Old has learned that Tokai lacquer actually does check, something he believed to be the opposite prior to this discussion.
A positive for sure.

What about the body is not right to you, Peter?
It has the correct neck route with the router bit lobes left and right.
It has the countersunk neck screw holes, the correct neck pup route with the flattened base and the correct angular route for the bridge.
Let me know if you need more pics, happy to oblige!

 

[adoring_fan107]

Thought id just say that its possible as you say, but many of these enthusiasts such as Villager and Peter have seen A LOT of TE and ST models of tokai.

 

[Udonitron]

I am not disputing that whatsoever but seeing & reading a lot vs seeing them all are 2 different things.
If we had documentation of prototypes, behind closed door testing etc then this would have been resolved on the 1st post but we don't.
None of us know and from the looks of it none of us ever will as we dont have confirmed examples of prototypes thus we just theorize and base assumptions on production models and what we would or wouldn't do if we were the company in charge.

 

[jacco]

Hi Jacco,

Tokai changed from Hex (allen key) to phillips at the end of MY1980. At the same time the neckplate changed also. The screw diameters and placement were altered, so a 1981 plate wont fit a 1980 body.

Peter Mac

Ok, then can I say in this case, with the december neck stamp, this means that the neck was not made in 1980 but earlier = 1979 or even 1978 as Chris thinks.
It also would mean that the body is from the same period, right?

 

[adoring_fan107]

I think what they're trying to say is there its FAR FAR more likely to be not a prototype, it could be at the SLIGHTEST chance but the guitar is around 30 years old and everyone has seen what some people have done to some guitars with them being chopped and changed. The chance that the guitar is like this is 1000 times greater than it being a prototype.

 

[Barks67]

The real issue lies where something occurs that is out of the norm and one tends to immediately refute it 1st and when that happens tendencies seems to lean towards a mountain moving to sway an already establish opinion, me thinks.
Unless we had a former worker from the factory here to give us definitives we are all shrouded in what we already know and what lies outside the realm of knowledge and into the unknown.

This is an interesting point. I do not know why emotions and suspicions run so high when anomalies are discussed. I like all the peeps here and it's uncomfortable when the bristles rise.
Example was when my 1985 LS bell TRC was bluntly dismissed as aftermarket and that it should be 14 degree 3 piece back- yet within a few months there were three seperate 1985 LS models - all UK non export imports with the same TRC and similar higher wood build specs. For some people this could have ramifications if they are in the process of selling - or even create an ebay dispute - so the onus should be that more care and due process be placed on these discussions of unknowns?

 

[Mojo Pin]

Exactly, the whole point of this forum is meant to be collective information resulting in better knowledge. There have been so many anomalies when it comes to vintage Tokais (all vintage MIJ guitars for that matter) you'd think there'd be a more open minded discussion here.

 

[felixcatus]

Enthusiasts is the key word however.
I am by no means an expert and others are more knowledgeable than I on the definitive known production models however we all gather our knowledge from catalogues, models owned, photos scrutinized over, and commonalities amongst all models and dates.
The real issue lies where something occurs that is out of the norm and one tends to immediately refute it 1st and when that happens tendencies seems to lean towards a mountain moving to sway an already establish opinion, me thinks.
Unless we had a former worker from the factory here to give us definitives we are all shrouded in what we already know and what lies outside the realm of knowledge and into the unknown.

If we had documentation of prototypes, behind closed door testing etc then this would have been resolved on the 1st post but we don't.
None of us know and from the looks of it none of us ever will as we dont have confirmed examples of prototypes thus we just theorize and base assumptions on production models and what we would or wouldn't do if we were the company in charge.

Did you try asking Tokai Gakki Co.Lltd directly?

 

[jacco]

Common sense dictates that you can't call something an anomaly without using a baseline for what's normal.

So it's very normal to check specs against the backlight of what we know is 'normal' for a certain type of guitar, during a certain timeframe in history.

So back on the subject of Chris' tele.
I noticed the truss rod has a hex nut and not a philips screw.
Hex nut to philips screw transition was late 1980 but not as late as december. As Chris's tele has a december neck stamp this means this neck was made in either 1978 or 1979. Agreed?

Peter pointed out that neck plate size and neck plate screw position changed during the same time as the truss rod adjustment type, so something similar applies here to the body; body must be late 1980 or earlier.

Now what can we determine further?

 

[Barks67]

Now't wrong with that!
I just appeal for a sense of decorum when discussing, as there are a lot of lurkers who may be put off by the tone from asking questions or contributing.
It's a public forum after all.
We've seen some very knowledgeable people walk away from MLP recently because of the tone and agendas of some.
Sorry for the OT - but that Tele looks class regardless!

Bx

 

[JDB]

Now what can we determine further?

No fret board stamp.

 

[Udonitron]

Yeah that is the odd thing then for sure.
If the hex nut truss adjustment denotes a 78-79 neck then why no neck stamp?

@Barks, cheers. It definitely is my favorite Tele!
The TEA pups are amazing.

 

[Udonitron]

Interesting read on what he claims about this LP to be a prototype., from a respected owner no less. 8)

http://www.k4.dion.ne.jp/~yjibika/1990sTokaiLS320Proto.html

A LP logo, no serial, truss rod cover, and top complexity.
It still has a card and neck pocket stamp saying it is an LS-320 but he refutes that all on some pretty insubstantial reasoning.
A truss cover can be changed as too can the mid headstock model script.
Why would Tokai use that script in the mid 80's when it was deemed illegal by that time to do so?
Why risk trouble from Gibson?

The lack of serial is interesting however perhaps it was refinished and the inked serial # removed?
Perhaps the 320 stamp was added later and the paperwork forged as why create paperwork for a prototype?
The top, while nice, is inferior to what I have seen on other Tokai's IMO but that is personal preference.
If a prototype why stamp the model in the neck pocket and on a card unless it was a pre-production model and if so how did he buy it so easily used?
Would this suggest that prototypes are somehow released to the public via internal reps?

 

[villager]

i dont think that is a prototype, i have had a 320 with no serial, and a high end nav 680 with card but no serial, so that means nothing, the headstock script is interesting, it may well have been an employees guitar or one of a test batch, but for me a prototype is something which differs significantly from the final production runs,

like this, this is what i would call a prototype..

http://s13.photobucket.com/user/generalunrest/library/ObG%20LPR%20Order%20Made%20CHSB%20Solid%20top?sort=3&page=1

totally different to all other OBG's serial no is a different format and makes no sense, solid flametop long tenon and different routing..

this MAY be a prototype maybe not ..

http://s765.photobucket.com/user/generalunrest2/library/Greco/Greco%20LP%20Custom%20built%20solid%20top?sort=3&page=1

those are the only 2 that I have that are so outside the norm that I would say they are prototypes..

 

[Udonitron]

The second one is more of a customer requested/built number, no?

 

[villager]

dont know, but i seen 3 examples and after that it was produced as the fujigen expert series..

 

[Udonitron]

Ah, yeah sounds like a limited run series then.

 

[villager]

all 3 examples were different.. one had chrome HW and a rosewood board, one gold and rosewood and the one i have is ebony board..