Springy ST60

[MIJvintage]

I can't tell, one is metallic green (gorgeous colour, but it has a big old high gloss maple neck - I really ought to sell it), and the other is black. I'm not really keen on SB anyway, most of my Strats are solid colours, so I don't know (or care) how many parts go to make up the body. I remain to be convinced that it makes any real difference - Fender rarely made 1 piece Strat bodies, especially alder bodies.

That really doesn't jive with your recent purchase, because you just blew $1500 on a sunburst example.

You also stated earlier, "I wish it was as simple as that! I have 2 84 Goldstars, but they're just not as good as the Springy. I can only really put that down to the thicker poly finish."
The poly finish (may) only be one piece of why you state the Springy as being better.
Also, it is very common for many makers to utilize multiple pieces, with random grain mismatching in solid color bodies, and the solid paint hides this ugly little fact.

I have consistantly seen that less pieces equals more sound when it concerns the number of pieces that make up a Strat body. This holds true, more often than not.
Much of this depends on the orientaion of the grain, at the join areas.
For example, I have seen where grains opposed at joins tend to deaden the sound aka cut off the transfere of vibration, thus choking off resonance.
My experience doesn't support what your observations are.
I learned this basically via trial & error, and then years later I learned that Eric Johnson prefered 1 piece body Strats, which are nearly impossible to locate. His Signature Strats are made with the 2 pc. center joined method, like 99% of USA Custom Shop models.
The 2 pc. center joined, and the more costly matched bodies, will consistantly offer much better transfere of vibration, and tonal response, over a multi piece, and randomly joined examples.

A thicker finish will also come into play, particularlly a poly finish but the essence of the guitar's resonance is the wood utilized in the body, and how it is put together.
That is where is all starts, and if the body lumber isn't right, then everything this is right won't help much.

 

[Anonymous]

That really doesn't jive with your recent purchase, because you just blew $1500 on a sunburst example.

True, but the majority of original condition Springys seem to be SB, so there wasn't a lot of choice. It would be the same if I ever decided to buy an early 60s Strat - to get an original one, I'd probably have to get a SB one, as original custom colours (if you can be sure that a custom colour is original) sell for even more than the far more common SB.

What you say may well be true, but my favourite Strats are metallic colours, & I can't tell how many pieces of wood make up the bodies. In fact I'd barely given it a moment's thought till I joined this forum! So I can't really tell you why my best Strats are the best - I just know that they are. It might be that they have one or 2 piece bodies, it might not. It might just be that the pieces that make up the body just "go well together" (whatever that means), or they are just a great match with the bit of maple that was randomly selected to make the neck. I wish I knew!

One factor that I have determined is that nitro finished Strats feel and sound better, and the only poly finished Strat that comes close is my Springy - assuming that it is poly, of course!

Since my ideal Strat will be Lake Placid Blue, Candy Apple Red, or one of the other metallic colours, it will always be difficult to determine the number of parts that make up the body, so I don't spend too much time fretting about it (no pun intended!). You might well be right, but there's nothing much I can do about it! That doesn't mean that I'll never buy or play a SB example, but it's one of the least interesting finishes for a Strat, IMHO. Now blonde - that's another matter, but they are quite rare.

 

[marcusnieman]

My ST80 (rosewood neck) is definitely a two color sunburst. I'm pretty sure the ST60 is as well but I'll need to have a closer look.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=8004&highlight=st80

 

[MIJvintage]

One factor that I have determined is that nitro finished Strats feel and sound better, and the only poly finished Strat that comes close is my Springy - assuming that it is poly, of course!

Your Springy is obviously a 2 pc. center joined example, and considering all of the posts in this thread that refer to your Springy, I would be willing to bet that your's is poly finished.

Since it is a 2 piece, and most likely poly finished, your previous points concerning body pieces & finish, have likely lost much of their credit.

So, basically your Springy is more or less a mirror to my Goldy, with the exception of the trem block & the pickups.

Enjoy your Springy, whatever she is; poly :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

Since it is a 2 piece, and most likely poly finished, your previous points concerning body pieces & finish, have likely lost much of their credit.

I wasn't aware we were having a competiton here. :-? There are many other possible factors that we haven't even mentioned, not least is the body wood - the ash versus alder debate. I would have thought that the wood used for the body would have more of an effect on the sound than the number of pieces of wood used. My Springy looks like ash, my Fenders are (as far as I know) alder. That's bound to make a difference.

 

[MIJvintage]

Since it is a 2 piece, and most likely poly finished, your previous points concerning body pieces & finish, have likely lost much of their credit.

I wasn't aware we were having a competiton here. :-? There are many other possible factors that we haven't even mentioned, not least is the body wood - the ash versus alder debate. I would have thought that the wood used for the body would have more of an effect on the sound than the number of pieces of wood used. My Springy looks like ash, my Fenders are (as far as I know) alder. That's bound to make a difference.

No, competition it is not; rather your quote of me is my counter concerning the number of pieces of lumber in the body, and the poly versus nitro theme, since we obviously have different ideas as to how these factor into, and contribute to the overall response of an instrument.

As you stated, your Springy is obviously ash/sen, and my Goldy (and yours) is alder, which will surely be a tonal difference.

As I stated, enjoy your Springy

 

[leadguitar_323]

Hi all, interesting thread, now i'm going to throw a spanner in the works .
I googled "high grade alder" and after looking at numerous sites i found a lot of pictures of Alder with grain very pronounced like Ash, with a 2 or 3 tone finish i'm sure a lot of you guys would think this to be Ash but it is definitely Alder. Sorry to add more confusion to the debate. :wink:

Cheers Mick

 

[MIJvintage]

.......here's another thread that we're waiting on for the photos of the claimed alder/ash look alike contest............


http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=60841&highlight=#60841

 

[leadguitar_323]

Have a look at the 60th anniversary tele it has a very nice figured alder top
http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.guitars.net/elguit1_files/image015.jpg&imgrefurl=http://guitars.net/elguit1.htm&h=219&w=500&sz=18&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=aIsv1xpuiI7UvM:&tbnh=57&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfigured%2Balder%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
Cheers Mick

 

[tudor]

Hi mates,

a HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you ... 8) 8) 8)

... just a short upshot for me right in the middle of that discussion ... :wink:

My requirements on a Strat had been ...

? 2 tone sunburst body, maximum 2 ps, ash or alder
? RW fretboard
? Excellent hardware ( steel trem block, pups, tuners, etc. )
? Condition VG to EXC

I must confess honestly ... although I'd like to have a ST80/100 with all my heart ... my lacking knowledge about these models has changed to a big confusion and I don't know if I would trust a seller (outside the forum) when offering me one of these models at this current state of ignorance ... for me it's like a huge puzzle with numerous parts and I couldn't be sure having considered all important details ... :-?

So - my choice for the Fender DMC seems to be the very best at the moment - clearly arranged, definitely meeting my demands and - additionally - beautiful sounding ... 8) :lol:

Roger

 

[Anonymous]

Hi all, interesting thread, now i'm going to throw a spanner in the works .
I googled "high grade alder" and after looking at numerous sites i found a lot of pictures of Alder with grain very pronounced like Ash, with a 2 or 3 tone finish i'm sure a lot of you guys would think this to be Ash but it is definitely Alder. Sorry to add more confusion to the debate. :wink:

Cheers Mick

Well, if you look at either of the main reference books on Fenders - the Duchossoir book, or Norman's Rare Guitars, in both cases you can see a clear difference on the Sunburst Strats. In Norman's, from 54 to 56, the bodies are ash, though all of them are less figured than my Springy (or John's or Marcus's) After 57 when alder became standard, the bodies are remarkably plain, with little visible grain - it's really surprising how plain they are. It's the same with the early Teles, which were all ash - very few of them have prominent grain, but the early 60s alder ones are even plainer.

In the Duchossoir book "The Fender Stratocaster", it says, while discussing the rare 50s Strats with figured maple necks:

"Leo always discouraged the beautiful wood in the neck because it is so rare. If we were a custom instruments maker, we could get enough of it, but not to make plenty of guitars. So Leo was very much against it, because it is not a good thing to do to have the ordinary run of the mill products to look like superlative instruments now and then for the same price

This attitude might also explain why bodies were made out of alder instead of ash after late 1956. Ash is a beautiful hardwood, often heavily figured, albeit fairly inconsistent...... Alder is less expensive..... is easier to seal and it's lack of figured grain does not require any special bookmatching. Ash was not totally discarded though, and it was retained on the custom coloured guitars, especially blond, because this translucent finish adequately showcased it's grain"

The first paragraph is from Fender stalwart, Freddie Tavares, the second from the author.

Not wishing to go off topic here, but this sounds to me like the similar debate about flame/tiger tops on early Les Paul Standards - they were quite rare, whereas they are far more common on the various re-issues, including Tokai, as the punters like them and are willing to pay more. Leo saw Fenders as the working man's guitar, they were mass produced, and significantly cheaper than most Gibsons. When alder proved to be as good as (or arguably better than) ash (except visually), he switched to alder, and most of the best Strats were a very plain alder. I have never seen or heard of a Strat in figured alder of any kind - if he wanted a figured wood (for a blond Strat, for example) he used ash.

So, sorry Mick, but I think you're wrong. It's generally accepted that Tokai used Sen, which is a type of Eastern ash, on the Springys. Your one picture of a very unusual piece of figured alder doesn't convince me.

Mike

 

[Anonymous]

Roger,

As you so rightly say - Happy New Year to everyone.

You make a fair point about the confusion over Springys. If the experts on here can't agree, what chance is there for the rest of us? :-?

However, after yesterday's discussions I spent an hour playing the Springy and the black Goldie. The Springy has more than just an edge over the Goldie - it's considerably better. The neck is slimmer and more comfortable, it's lighter, but the sound is just so much better. Because of their fairly low output readings, I have gradually raised the pickups on the Springy higher than I usually do on a Strat (they often sound better if you lower the pickups a bit), and the sound, specially from the neck pickup, is very good - open and transparent, like a good Strat should be. Even the bridge pickup manages to cut through without any harshness. The E pickups didn't initially grab my attention, but they are subtle, and they are still growing on me.

So I'm glad I bought it, even at the high price I paid. There are very few Strats around that sound and feel like this one, and I've owned and played a few over the years.

 

[leadguitar_323]

Hi Mike, mate i could post links to heaps of sites with figured alder but i'm not trying to prove anything. I spent a couple of hours yesterday researching different wood species for a project guitar i'm going to build {a swamp ash 1 piece strat} and came across several references and pics of figured alder. A lot of ash guitars have a grain filler that highlites the grain before finishing goes ahead , especially on blonde examples so if this method is used on figured alder it looks very similar. In reference to your guitar your probably right, that reference was for MIJ Vintage who didn't think that alder could look like ash. You've got to admit that 60th anniversary fender looks like Ash.

cheers Mick

 

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen - where is Kaze?

So please hear my suggestion. Burn them.

My theory is that ash might just develop this more sticky type of smoke.

Whereas alder of course will just whiff off.

Of course I don't have proof.

Cheers!
Rup

 

[Anonymous]

So please hear my suggestion. Burn them.

Tell you what Rup, I have a suggestion too. Let's start by burning a few of yours - if it's a success, maybe the rest of us will join in.

Deal?

 

[Anonymous]

you bring yours. I'll bring mine.

Where?

 

[Anonymous]

what's the english word for "lagerfeuer"? as in joe strummer?

 

[sneakyjapan]

beer fire? we call that a Bar-B-Q.

 

[Anonymous]

You can tell you have too many guitars when you start thinking about burning them.....

:-? :lol:

 

[chu71]

well, here s another st60 - stratman kindly led me to this thread






tiene este toque en el cuerpo