Not much love for Talbo?

[Tokairic]

Looks like you added to your message.

Basically what you are saying is why Tokai launched its Fender and Gibson copy lines in 1977/78, because those companies lost their way.

Tokai went back to the basics and reintroduced people to the icons those companies had once produced.

Then ironically Tokai lost its way when it ventured into all these other product lines like the Talbo.

There are reasons for this. Lawsuits, competition and trying to create new markets.

In the mix there were all sorts of interesting guitars made that most collectors overlook. Like Talbos and even Goldstars.

I think some of the Custom Edition guitars look amazing.

So I hear you, just want to recognize that there may be other viewpoints and it’s not as simple as people being brainwashed or having a herd mentality.

Ibanez were threatened by the Lawsuits, and bravely decided to market their own designs rather than waste money on lawyers. Good on 'em.
Another reason the 'clone' guitars were made was to cash in on the popularity of the big US guitar companies. To be fair even the MIJ earliest guitars were pretty poor imitations (ply wood bodies etc) but they were cheap and allowed the layman to play a guitar resembling a Gibson, while a real Gibson cost the earth - not helped by import restrictions in the UK in the 50's and 60's, so even if you could afford one they were very thin on the ground. Hence the Beatles playing Hofner guitars early on.

Bearing in mind the 'popularity' of the Gibson Les Paul now - it was almost abandoned by Gibson after the first couple of years of incredibly poor sales. Even I am glad they relaunched it.

 

[Sigmania]

Tokai Talbo | Vintage Guitar® magazine

 

[Voidoid56]

What I find most fascinating about the Talbos and MATs is how a company that based their initial meteoritic success on correctly identifying and catering to the seep-seated conservatism of guitarists by offering "the exact copy of the good old Strat" and other classics could go so badly off the rails in terms of creating commercially successful original models, just a few years later? I mean, aluminium bodies and carbon fibre necks?

I wonder if they thought attitudes had changed? If so, what did they base that assumption on? Maybe they believed they could change attitudes? If so, I'm inclined to believe that Fender's Dan Smith was justified in calling Tokai "arrogant". Either way, it's a bit weird, and it's interesting to note that the most sucessful MIJ originals of the time, like The Yamaha SG series, Ibanez Artist and Ibanez Iceman/Greco Mirage, were all basically quite conventional Gibson-style guitars.
The combo of being chased with a blowtorch by Fender Japan and failing to find success with their original designs must have been devastating for Tokai.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a Talbo, they're interesting guitars. Original ones are fairly rare and quite expensive, though, they do have a cult following. They had some rockstar fans as well, like INXS and Nile Rodgers. The latter sold a couple of HH Talbos in a Christie's auction a couple of years ago, apparently he considered them great rock n' roll guitars.

 

[Sigmania]

I have wondered the same thing.

What I assume is that they were trying to create a new market rather than chasing others in traditional ones.

I would also guess that there was a substantial investment that had to be made in producing aluminum body guitars. Hamamatsu Joe suggested in an older thread that this was a factor in their financial problems of 1983-

Also intersting to me is that in another thread I was exploring Shohei Adachi's role at Tokai. Luis was saying this was around the time he was getting involved in the family business. Have to wonder how the new generations' ideas played out within a small family business?

The world was changing, and this is one of the moves they made as well as the gradual move over the next 10 years away from traditional guitars (Strats) until ironically (I think) they began making traditional models for Fender in 1992/93-

Sort of like going from sticking your neck out and thumbing your nose in the face of giants like Fender to falling in line and supporting them.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em" as they say.

 

[Rodi]

Well, it's easier to imitate and very hard to innovate. Tokai builds great guitars, but perhaps their strong suit is in copies. I personally do not see anything wrong with that. They would have to make a great guitar that resonated with the public, but most of the public does not get to see Tokais because the network of dealers in not in key places. I'm an adult, I work in an industry that has you constantly on your toes, and yet for the life of me I have yet to grasp the models as they changed rapidly and the numbering is plain ole not great. The font business was like that then in the 1950's Adrian Frutiger put numbers to the weight in titles of Univers for the Foundry

Deberny & Peignot. It's now common place and makes sense.

 

[Tokairic]

My latest Tokai Talbo aquisition. I sadly parted with my two Ric copies and MIJ Love Rock some time ago, but the engineer in me couldn't resist buying a metal guitar (not the music genre).
I love it, but it can be cold on your personal parts when playing seated!
It was metallic black poly when I bought it but the black was peeling off in sheets, so it had to be polished alloy. The original decals have been sourced and will be fitted later.
Other than the peeliing paint its in great condition.
Not tied down the date of manufacture yet although I think its a late run - late '80's maybe.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

The first innovation guitar players have rejected in modern times was the electric guitar and it needed to slowly change music per se to really catch on the way it did. From there 9 out of 10 attempts at innovating or renovating was rejected and didn't last long. The only dramatic post-1960s innovation that kind of persisted is the various iterations of connecting synths and guitars.

This also doesn't seem to follow any discernible pattern but one thing can be said with certainty is that the average guitarist doesn't like changes to the instrument itself. He may embrace digital technology in form of amp modeling and effects but the bridge on his guitar must be the very same, very crude 1950s design. But let's not forget that the shredder folks embraced new (often pointy and modernistic) designs and deviations from the same old same old.

Don't get me wrong, I want my guitars made out of wood, too, because I like wood and I prefer classic designs because I'm almost a boomer - unless there is a striking ergonomic or sonic advantage. Some attempts at improving guitars were just plain stupid (Bond guitar, anyone?) and forcing robot tuners onto folks that wanted to purchase a pronouncedly conservative guitar was a spectacular failure.

However, the core of this "conservatism" might be that the majority of players is after adopting the tone of their role models and seek to replicate 1973 recordings of 1958 guitars rather than looking for new and unheard-of guitar sounds, and the amount of people interested in the latter is very small. Introducing a new, not that easy to digest design made from a material players aren't used to and hoping for to sell enough of them to cover development and manufacturing costs while keeping them affordable was probably a too tall order for Tokai. Fender tried to do it right and made Telecasters with aluminum bodies shortly after the Talbos were introduced but to my knowledge they were not super successful either, at least I heard of them for the first time 10 minutes ago.

 

[Sigmania]

That's an interesting observation about replicating tone of our heroes.

I found a video the other day of a guy that nails the tone of some of the more famous leads from the 70s. What really got me was the Gilmore lead on his G&L.

Guitaring Guitarist Workshopping Place

There is something about certain tones for me along with rapid fire notes in succession that play off each other like complimentary colors on a Monet painting.

Eric Clapton was a genius for doing that in my opinion from very early on. Slow hand hitting notes in combination that had such power and force, combined with a thick and electrifying tone.

If you could do that on a Talbo and get the videos out there you might sell some guitars.

 

[Tokairic]

The first innovation guitar players have rejected in modern times was the electric guitar and it needed to slowly change music per se to really catch on the way it did. From there 9 out of 10 attempts at innovating or renovating was rejected and didn't last long. The only dramatic post-1960s innovation that kind of persisted is the various iterations of connecting synths and guitars.

This also doesn't seem to follow any discernible pattern but one thing can be said with certainty is that the average guitarist doesn't like changes to the instrument itself. He may embrace digital technology in form of amp modeling and effects but the bridge on his guitar must be the very same, very crude 1950s design. But let's not forget that the shredder folks embraced new (often pointy and modernistic) designs and deviations from the same old same old.

Don't get me wrong, I want my guitars made out of wood, too, because I like wood and I prefer classic designs because I'm almost a boomer - unless there is a striking ergonomic or sonic advantage. Some attempts at improving guitars were just plain stupid (Bond guitar, anyone?) and forcing robot tuners onto folks that wanted to purchase a pronouncedly conservative guitar was a spectacular failure.

However, the core of this "conservatism" might be that the majority of players is after adopting the tone of their role models and seek to replicate 1973 recordings of 1958 guitars rather than looking for new and unheard-of guitar sounds, and the amount of people interested in the latter is very small. Introducing a new, not that easy to digest design made from a material players aren't used to and hoping for to sell enough of them to cover development and manufacturing costs while keeping them affordable was probably a too tall order for Tokai. Fender tried to do it right and made Telecasters with aluminum bodies shortly after the Talbos were introduced but to my knowledge they were not super successful either, at least I heard of them for the first time 10 minutes ago.

Are the aluminium Telecasters actual Fender or an aftermarket manufacturer? I have seen some aluminium telecaster bodies for sale brand new on ebay recently, from small makers.
And there are the Trussart metal body guitars (Steelcaster?) etc
I found an aluminium SG made by EKO in the 1960's on ebay.
Also a Fender Custom Shop Harley Davidson Strat aluminium body. 1993 with no body holes so could be a prototype. Ad says 109 made.
Koloss guitars with alloy bodies (Chinese I think, and not universally liked) they also do carbon fibre guitars.
I've even found a Tokai Breezysound thinline aluminium body being sold as a prototype from the 1990's in Australia.
So - plenty of alloy bodies have been tried but I don't think any are as. successful as the Tokai Talbo.
It also looks as though Tokai had two goes at casting the bodies of the Talbo. The very early two bolt neck version appears to be solid aluminium with routed out pickup cavities etc but the later four bolt neck version is totally hollow with a foam insert probably to deaden the "ring" of the metal body.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I found a video the other day of a guy that nails the tone of some of the more famous leads from the 70s. What really got me was the Gilmore lead on his G&L.

He nails about every tone one could think of, he's the dream top-40 band guitarist He also totally nails the SRV "Pride and Joy" riff and sound with his G&L, both so tough to get right.

Are the aluminium Telecasters actual Fender or an aftermarket manufacturer?

I'd say both Story is in here:

https://reverb.com/item/7264136-fen...e-guitar-body-nos-from-93-94-rare-made-in-usa

 

[Sigmania]

http://fridays-dream.com/toukaigakki3.html

Tokai Musical Instruments Manufacturing Co., Ltd. 3

I was working for "Tokai Musical Instrument Manufacturing Co., Ltd." in Hamamatsu City, Shizuoka Prefecture. I was a member of the company until the end of 1984, and it was certainly a very interesting company!

However, since there were many musical instruments that were mainly produced using "wood" as a raw material, it is certain that there was always a risk of being fundamentally "unprofitable".

It's true that when I joined the company for about 2 or 3 months, I thought, "Is this really not possible?" Even young people who entered after graduating from high school understood this.

Why?
Instruments that use wood (especially instruments that emphasize wood grain) are limited in the materials that can be used . In particular, for manufacturers that mass produce to a certain extent, they do not do inefficient things such as purchasing the front plate one by one.

Naturally, by purchasing in bulk, the cost of purchases can be lowered, but then, as a matter of course, there will be materials that cannot be used.

For example, "the wood grain is not beautiful" or "the wood grain is beautiful, but it has a seam".

I'm going to have a good time.

In addition, the material used for the table board is basically "straight grain" board, but "straight grain board" is called "quarter sawn" in English, and only one quarter can be taken from the log. It's the material. It also means that three-fourths of the log will be wasted. And since wood is a "living material" even after it is felled, it may become 　In this way, it can be said that wood products such as guitars are destined to be prone to "waste" during the process from raw materials to finished products .

If this is an individual production of about 10 or so a year, it is possible to examine and purchase the materials for each piece and produce it without waste. It will go away.

Due to these circumstances, the size of the Tokai Musical Instruments company was incomplete. It might have been better if it had a small number of people like "Yairi Guitar" , but is it a medium-sized company with about 400 employees? Was it? Limbo? I think it was.

However, the president at the time, Mr. Tadayuki Adachi, was well aware of the situation. And he had some very interesting ideas. I belonged to the sales department, so I may have had more opportunities to meet him than regular employees, but I always thought he was a very unique person. On the face of it, Managing Director Toshio Oba seemed to be in charge of everything, but in reality, I think President Adachi was leading Tokai Gakki.

This is Mr. Tadayuki Adachi, 　the president at the time . 　During the Pacific War, 　did you go to mainland China with Managing Director Oba 　and play various pranks? 　I heard 　a lot of fun stories !​

What kind of unique ideas did you have? (There are a lot of things that are taken for granted, but...)

"Salespeople tell us to make easy-to-sell products, but what can we do? If it's a product that sells, we need a salesperson." What if you say that? (It's the Enshu dialect. Everyone at the head office speaks the Enshu dialect, right?)

That was a reasonable opinion!

"Even if you say that handmade is good, you say that handmade is good, why do you have to carve everything by hand from a log?" Why don't you just do the last important part by hand? Until then, did you do it with a machine...? Is it the first time in the industry that it was introduced by saying, "Computer-controlled three-dimensional NC router". With the introduction of this machine, it became possible to produce electric guitar bodies with overwhelming speed and accuracy.

"If there is a lot of waste in using wood... why don't you use wood?" There's no law against using anything other than wood to make a guitar ! '

　　Well, if it doesn't produce a good sound because it has different characteristics from wood, why not develop a material that has the same characteristics as wood and produces a good sound? If that's the case, can't you just throw away all the waste? With this in mind, we developed the "Talbo" electric guitar with an aluminum alloy body, and the "MAT" series of electric guitars made from carbon materials. bottom.
The "MAT" was launched with a wooden neck, but later developed into an all-carbon guitar with a carbon neck.

These revolutionary guitars... didn't sell at all?

Did users not keep up with this revolutionary idea? It seemed (Later, it was reviewed and the evaluation seemed to have risen...) However, since those technologies were developed and commercialized, I think that the latent ability of Tokai Musical Instruments was still very high.

This kind of thinking was also used in "Piano". The mechanism that produces the sound of a piano is called an "action". In the case of , "crazy" and defective parts are likely to appear, and many parts must be manufactured one by one.

"Then make one out of plastic!" So I introduced a plastic action, but the world of pianos is far more "conservative" than the world of guitars, so sales were very difficult.

Well, these capital investments and development costs (especially capital investments for piano production) put pressure on cash flow, and the appreciation of the yen was the main factor. It seems to be said.

In particular, we often heard that the impact of the appreciation of the yen was large for those of us in the sales department. Tokai musical instruments at that time
It seems that there was also a considerable profit from exports. I remember the Trade Department often saying, "If the dollar goes up to 170 yen, we can do our best, but if it goes below that, it's impossible!"

This is what I saw as an insider of the company situation at the time when Tokai Gakki applied for a peace settlement.

Of course, I was the most "low-ranking" employee, so I don't think it's a certainty...