Model Rollover

[Peter Mac]

Hi all,
my esteemed colleague, stratman323, has brought up a very worthy point in a previous thread and i believe it warrants discussion.
I had - quite incorrectly - referred to his 1980 SS-60 as being a 1981 model.
My point was, that his guitar - whilst built in 1980 and with a 1980 serial number 0011643- was built for the 1981 Model range.
This point was further made plain by settebello who has a 1981 SS-60 with a 1981 serial number 1012756 . . . barely 1100 numbers apart.
That is barely 2 months production. I would love to know what the code stamps are for both these . . it may help unlock another mystery.
So . . .
It is common practice within the Auto industry to release new vehicle models [2009] in the last quarter of the previous year [Oct-Dec 2008]. Tokai,as with many Japanese manufacturers follow the same practice.
Production planning has to be done almost 6 months ahead for logistics reasons that anything shorter would possibly cause a breakdown in inventory.
I am sure there are thousands of Tokai guitars that are 'last quarter' builds but i do fear that if they are not recognised for the Year model it creates a confusion that Models ran longer than they did.

regards
Peter Mac

 

[settebello]

I would love to know what the code stamps are for both these . . it may help unlock another mystery.

'81 Silver Star SS60

SN: 1012756
Neck: 2=6
Body: 1=7 BB X
Pups: gray bottom no stamp,blue/black wire
Neck: Rosewood
Colour: Black


Volker

 

[Peter Mac]

thanks you Volker,
hopefully we'll get a post from stratman323 with his and be able to compare.
Any other members who may wish to forward thier markings and stamps please feel free to do so

regards
Peter Mac

 

[Anonymous]

Just seen this thread. Don't know why I didn't see it earlier. The one bit of info I can't give you is the neck markings - I've never removed the neck as I can adjust the TR without doing so, so there's never been a need. And it's been nicely set up now, so I don't really want to mess with it unless I have to.

'80 Silver Star SS60

SN: 0011643
Neck: ?
Body: 12 = 10 OW
Pups: grey bottom no stamp, blue/black wire
Neck: Rosewood
Colour: White

Do I assume from what you said above Peter that you reckon they made over 500 guitars a month? I didn't expect such a high number as that.

I can see your argument about last quarter builds, & about it being misleading to suggest that they were made for longer than they were. However, I would offer two counter-arguements to that.

First, if you state something like "the 3 bolt SS60 was only made in 1981" you will confuse anyone who buys a 1980 model like mine - and there must be many others. They will wonder if it's a fake, yet we all seem sure that mine isn't a fake. So I think we have to state that they were made in '80 & '81 because they were!

Second, you have a lot more faith in the Tokai catalogues than I do!! Tokai have a well-established track record for producing stuff that isn't in the catalgues - this forum is testament to that! :roll: Personally I view the catalogues as rough guidance, but little more than that. You seem to be suggesting that everything was far more logical & planned than this. Is there any evidence to back up that theory? The more posts I read on this forum, the harder I find it to see the Tokai production process as being carefully planned! :lol:

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Mike

 

[settebello]

Here is the one from Diodibuh.
Scroll up a bit.
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=83953&highlight=#83953

Volker

 

[Peter Mac]

Hi Mike and Volkers,

I do have more faith in the catalogues. In the absence of accurate production records, they are the Yardstick to knowing what was being produced en masse. Take into account that if 5% was R&D, custom or prototypes, this still leaves 95% of all guitars produced being in the catalogue. The important thing is not just the serial# but also the stamps to determine when the guitar was made.
I have catalogued over 1200 Tokai codes and in all these the first number has never exceeded 12 - so i would say it is a Month. The second number has never exceeded 27 so this could be Day.
Using this theory, Mikes guitar was finished in Dec 1980 and Volkers in Feb 1981. I am using the neck stamp on Volkers as this would have been when the serial number was applied. Then we have Diodibuh. It would suggest a Jan 1981 build but the serial# is 400 higher.
This could be due to a few causes but does show that at least 400 serial numbers a month were being produced. This is over ALL the model range - PB, JB, LS, LC, ES, ST and SS
Incidently, the copyright date for the 1980 catalog is Nov 1979, and the 1981 catalogue is Mar 1981 - 3rd printing.

regards
Peter Mac

 

[Anonymous]

Aha, now this is interesting. So Peter, you're throwing your weight behind the idea that the mysterious codes are production numbers that indicate the month of manufacture? Well........

Last time anyone suggested that on here, one or two people got very upset. :lol: Teddies were thrown out of prams, all very controversial.

If you're right, it makes a lot of sense & it makes life easier all round. And, having checked all the pics I have access to, you're right - the highest number used in the first part of the code is 12. That's so obvious that it makes me wonder why this hasn't come up before!

It certainly works for my SS60, but I have a Springy that makes it seem less likely. As we know, in 1980 RW board Springys became more correct - no headstock plug or skunk stripe, & an 11 hole, 3-ply SP. So it seems reasonable to assume that the early 1980 models had the "incorrect" features & the more authentic copies were produced later in the year.

I have 2 1980 Springys, both with the later 1980 features mentioned above. The ST80 seems to prove your point - both neck & body have a code of 12 = 13, so December. Logical.

But the ST60 has a neck code of 1 = 1 & there doesn't seem to be a body code, just the colour code YS X. But it can't be from January 1980 as it has no skunk stripe. Unless you are suggesting that it was an January 1981 model with a 1980 serial number? Possible I guess.

I still think it would be misleading to state that the 3 bolt SS60 was only produced in 1981 though. Maybe you could say that the model seems to have been intended for sale in 1981, though several models from 1980 are known to exist, possibly as prototypes or R&D models? Then nobody can be misled.

Incidentally, on a separate point, does anyone know why Tokai used brass saddles on the 3 bolt SS60? I don't recall Fender ever using brass, though 70s Strat are not something I know much about. Was there a precedent? Or did Tokai just decide to try something different?

 

[AlanN]

the highest number used in the first part of the code is 12. That's so obvious that it makes me wonder why this hasn't come up before!

*COUGH*

I believe I got a battering from Joe for stating this very thing. I did look at an awful number of pictures too...

Someone pro-Joe's "router ID" argument (still makes me chuckle) said they have a "13" somewhere if I recall correctly. I'm still waiting for the pics.

 

[settebello]

Then we have Diodibuh. It would suggest a Jan 1981 build but the serial# is 400 higher.
This could be due to a few causes but does show that at least 400 serial numbers a month were being produced. This is over ALL the model range - PB, JB, LS, LC, ES, ST and SS

regards
Peter Mac

Isn't Diodibuh's SN ~4000 higher. :roll: That make it made in october '81.

Volker

 

[settebello]

The codes are crazy.Anybody have a idea for this.

That's the neckcode of my '79 ST80 GSR.


Volker

 

[Anonymous]

The codes are crazy.Anybody have a idea for this.

That's called "keeping your options open"!

Apologies to Alan for forgetting his role in the earlier argument about codes - we always had lively discussions when Joe was around! :lol:

 

[settebello]

That's called "keeping your options open"!

:lol:

Volker

 

[settebello]

Hi Peter,
there's another '80 SS60 at Ebay right now.Seems its made in Dezember also.
Body code 12-9.
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110530423234&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Volker

 

[Anonymous]

Well there are certainly a lot of 1980 guitars for a model only made in 1981......

 

[Peter Mac]

There certain are.
1979 to 1982 was certainly the golden years in terms of quality, sales and production.

 

[Anonymous]

That's not what I meant....