Interesting Tokai Harmony Central thread

[20 century boy]

For me they`re a place I can use " regular English " as most of the time I have to KISS...keep it simple stupid because 99% of folks I deal with are non native speakers so just to make sure I don`t lose my English..as is happeneing with my French...I have fun on the web.

For your french you can visit
http://www.guitariste.com/forums/

 

[hans-j?rgen]

Well regardless of me offering a good deal on the LS-320 I still have no serious offers. I thought this thing would get snatched right up-it is a lot of money and taxes were just do so it's most likely a terrible time to sell a guitar.

Joe, maybe you really should try to post it in the LPF classifieds, because there may be some Gibson collectors who would like to try out a high end Tokai. But I would ask Lily about their policy first, maybe they only reject ads for Les Paul replicas with "Gibson" on the headstock like the ones from Max etc.

 

[sneakyjapan]

For me they`re a place I can use " regular English " as most of the time I have to KISS...keep it simple stupid because 99% of folks I deal with are non native speakers so just to make sure I don`t lose my English..as is happeneing with my French...I have fun on the web.

For your french you can visit
http://www.guitariste.com/forums/

merci beaucoup.

 

[bunbury]

Bear with me on this! About 15 yrs ago I was sitting on a ski-lift in Colarado with and American who was a patriotic US car enthusiast. Big gas-guzzlers were his thing. I said that's not going to last - the rest of world has much higher fuel prices and is developing lighter, faster cars that have MUCH better fuel economy and don't wind up in the courts on dangerous construction charges (I think there was a Ford P something-or-other killing it's occupants at the time).

He reacted very angily, just like the Gibson guys, and I was really pleased to escape his rant at the top. And look at the story from Detroit now ....

Point being, being you can't buck the market for ever and it's the market that's pushing early Tokai prices. Plenty of people want them more than they want some (not all!) Gibsons - quality, exclusivity, value-for-money and two fingers to Gibson may all be part of it. If some Gibsons are cheaper than some Tokais, then that's because they .... well, that's dangerous territory isn't it .... ''

Mind you, anyone seen Clapton's Bluesbreaker Les Paul?

Bunbury

 

[20 century boy]

There's some truth in what you say but the market is not wise or reasonable. And it's the same for the economic market. There's some craze that takes people and they act stupidly for a while and then it return to normality, etc...

At the moment, MIJ is the word. Some of these Tokai worth the price they are sold for, some not. When I see a Burny LP Jr selling on ebay for the price of a 90's Gibson Jr, I can't help telling myself there's a problem. We are talking about a poly finish guitar selling for the price of a nitro finish there. It's a good guitar... but it's not a Gibson!!!
And I don't talk about the people who have bought a Korean Tokai thinking it was a japanese one because they heard that Orville were great and didn't gather enough informations before buying.

 

[sneakyjapan]

some of us actually prefer a good MIJ to a Gibson...no, really.

 

[bunbury]

I agree with you 20 century boy, which is why I was careful to say 'older Tokais'. Here the comparison is valid. The build quality of a late 70's Tokai, for example, puts a lot of Gibsons made in the past 30 yrs to shame. I'll leave it to others to compare the modern Tokais and modern Gibsons.

Gibson prices for their 'cheaper' guitars are determined by lot of things - including sentiment. But if you stack the shelves high and then sell expensive, expect someone to move in on your market and offer better value for money.

Bunbury

 

[bunbury]

it's too early. I've misquoted myself ... it should have been "early Tokais"

Bunbury

 

[Anonymous]

Well regardless of me offering a good deal on the LS-320 I still have no serious offers. I thought this thing would get snatched right up-it is a lot of money and taxes were just do so it's most likely a terrible time to sell a guitar.

Joe, maybe you really should try to post it in the LPF classifieds, because there may be some Gibson collectors who would like to try out a high end Tokai. But I would ask Lily about their policy first, maybe they only reject ads for Les Paul replicas with "Gibson" on the headstock like the ones from Max etc.

I actually emailed Lily but never got a response. However, that one Tokai has been in the classifieds forever.

 

[hans-j?rgen]

I talked to hoss33 on another forum today about that issue, and he's absolutely sure that they only mean Max and Keebler replicas having a "Gibson" headstock with that rule. Here's the thread, but only in German, sorry:

http://www.musiker-board.de/vb/showthread.php?t=126597

 

[JSD]

Joe, its too bad you have to part with such a beauty. Its funny some people will pay an extrodanary amount of money just to have a big brand name and not blink an eye but something of this quality comes along and its considered an overpriced copy guitar, go figure. Someone that is in the know will pick up a beauty from you there...

I read through some of the post over at HC, I don't care for all the useless arguements that happen over the net, its pretty pointless don't you think? Every forum has its clicks and popular members so you can't win there. One point of BigMike's I didn't care for was that only a "kid" would be happy with a MIK Tokai or something along that lines. I've sold quite a few and talked to many customers who have have been playing a long time and they seem quite happy with their MIK Tokais. Sure a MIJ is a better guitar but you don't have to be a "kid" to enjoy a MIK Tokai.

Thats my 2 cents worth....

 

[bigmike]

JSD,

Well a lot of people got derailed in that thread by the name calling. WHAT I SPECIFICALLY WENT THERE TO ANSWER WAS the notion that the LS320 was not as good (or better) than a Gibson Custom Shop or Historic in quality. Then someone jumps in and starts talking about the MIKs like they should be in the same discussion. And I told this in the thread and offline to many people that wrote me there. The MIKs are great guitars, if you are a kid and starting out and don't have the cash (the McDonalds reference) the MIKs are bitching guitars. BUT a lot of people want a Historic quality guitar and buy an MIK thinking it'll match up and are letdown...

As I renumerated in the thread and private replies the MIKs are cheaper because:

they're not solid flame tops
they use cheaper pots, pickups, tailpieces and tuners
the bodies are often multipiece
they don't have the exquisite subtle details of the LS320 (or LS200)

Heck if they DID no one would bother paying for an LS320 would they ??



Big

 

[damameke]

There is no end in comparing the guitar brands, be it a Tokai copy vs Gibson or an Epi LP vs Gibson LP.

I bet if all of us are filthy rich we would collect them all, then again I am
not, so I buy what I can afford, unless it is carved in stone that if I buy a
real Gibson, I will play like Jimi Hendrick, Eric Clapton or even Eddie Van Halen.

I am stuck at Dorian mode.

 

[JSD]

BUT a lot of people want a Historic quality guitar and buy an MIK thinking it'll match up and are letdown...

I know what your saying about the difference in MIJ and MIK but if someone is buying a $500 to $600 guitar and expecting a $2000++ guitar then they are only letting themselves down, not very bright or are being misled. My only point here is the MIK are a decent guitar and you don't need to be a "kid" to think they are a good value or a "bitchin" guitar. Not everyone can afford or needs a $2000+ guitar.

 

[Peter S.]

Tell that ******** that 320,000 yen = $2719.

Your guitar is going for less than retail, without all the hassle of ordering, import tax, waiting time etc. etc.

No, 320.000 Yen is the __suggested__ Tokai retail price.

When I ordered from Ishibashi, I always got a 20% discount. So the retail price of that guitar is more likely: 256.000 Yen = 2210 US$.

At that price, I would order new. Anyway, no need to get personal over a guitar.

 

[TUNAFREAK]

I think the less people know about Tokais the better. Let the gibson guys have fun with the POS that they over payed for. I don't want to get our customs agents to used to the Tokai name. I never get into it with Gibson people, I just let alone.

Mark

 

[bruno]

I completly agree, that is a total waste of time...

 

[sneakyjapan]

20% off list is standard in Japan unless it`s the mysterious...open price...which pretty much means, we can charge you anything we like...and they do.

 

[JD]

I've had both brands (Gibson and Tokai). Tokais from 1979 until present and Gibsons from the '60s up to the current CS/Historic stuff.

What I can say is the current Gibson Historic is top notch period. But it does not come cheap. Some of the Tokais come close and are better bang for the buck (cost vs quality) all things considered.

Hands down the Gibson is a better instrument ONLY IF PRICE IS NOT A FACTOR.

 

[Paladin2019]

I've had both brands (Gibson and Tokai). Tokais from 1979 until present and Gibsons from the '60s up to the current CS/Historic stuff.

What I can say is the current Gibson Historic is top notch period. But it does not come cheap. Some of the Tokais come close and are better bang for the buck (cost vs quality) all things considered.

Hands down the Gibson is a better instrument ONLY IF PRICE IS NOT A FACTOR.

Out of interest, have you tried a 200, 320 or anything like that? I only ask because I agree that Tokai's VFM is far superior to Gibson's, and my experience (I own a 200) tells me that the rule holds true right up to the very top of the tree.