Tokai Curveball Hall of Fame

To clarify what I’m saying, this is an Ibanez from 1974….

It has the same routs, and is clearly the early ancestor of later Ibanez and Greco guitars that have the later added notch to access the truss rod. Same as the Nagano SS38.

That together with the 1981 Greco SE450 that clearly states that Fujigen Gakki was the builder….

Seems like the dots are being connected.


https://www.ibanez-vintage.net/guitars/2375/



And to belabor the point, here’s an Ibanez from 1978, still a couple of years before Tokai put its name on guitars from Nagano with the exact same routing pattern.

https://www.creamcitymusic.com/vintage-1978-ibanez-silver-series-electric-guitar-natural-finish/

mdvineng said:

Body routings were more angular and with a battery reccess.

Click to expand...

I think that recess is for the pickup selector?

Very interesting to see that 1982 SS38 with Fujigen traits as well. It could make sense in view of the fact that Greco Fender copy production ended in April that year (due to Kanda Shokai's and Fujigen's involvement with Fender Japan), so they might well have had SE450/SE700 overstock to sell.

As a point of interest (and possible clarification): that square style of pickup routing was used by Matsumoku as well as by Fujigen, so there could be room for confusion there. There is another difference, however: Matsumoku routed their control cavities deeper than Fujigen, which means they lack the indentation under the pickup switch. Pic of a 1981 Aria Pro II ST-600D-T.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Ljy9jqL.jpg[/img]

In fact, try as I might, all specific references to Tokai having had a factory of their own in Nagano that I can find actually comes back to this forum. I've asked a couple of contacts in Japan, and though they've never investigated it specifically, none of them had ever heard of one.
I'm thinking we may conceivably have an internet-generated artifact here. Maybe someone misread "a Tokai made by a factory in Nagano" as "a Tokai made by the factory in Nagano" and took it from there?

Forum posts generally seem to have a really long life as well, Google apparently rate them very highly, so they very often come up early in hit lists. Since MIJ guitar research keeps moving forward, info from 2010 or even 2015 may be badly out of date by now, with more and more guitars coming in from Japan every day.
So we tend to end up with factoids that refuse to die. As far as I'm concerned, the Tokai Nagano plant may well be one. But we'll see what info turns up next.

Voidoid56 said:

In fact, try as I might, all specific references to Tokai having had a factory of their own in Nagano that I can find actually comes back to this forum.
I've asked a couple of contacts in Japan, and though they've never investigated it specifically, none of them had ever heard of one.
I'm thinking we may conceivably have an internet-generated artifact here. Maybe someone misread "a Tokai made by a factory in Nagano" as "a Tokai made by the factory in Nagano" and took it from there?

Click to expand...

Re-posting for emphasis....

All great points as always.

I started a separate thread on this because I thought it was so interesting.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26429

There is a link to a message between a member here, jacco, and a collector in Japan, Hiroyuki Yamauchi , in 2010 that may be its source?

jacco said:

Here's an update on this subject.
I have had email contact with 2 Japanese guitar collectors and they both told me that there was indeed another Tokai factory besides Hamamatsu, one in Nagano (150 km up north). That's were the ink stamped Tokai's were made.
I will quote one here:

Konnichiwa Jacco,

Grecos were made in Matsumoku (Matsumoto Mokkou) factory
in Matsumoto, that was definitely different from Nagano
factory of Tokai Gakki in Matsumoto.

Best regards
Hiroyuki Yamauchi

Click to expand...

So the Nagano branch of Tokai guitars stood in Matsumoto, same town were Greco's etc were made.
I was also told that because the traditional relationship between employer and employee in Japan it's unthinkable that employees worked in 2 factories at the same time.
It's still a mystery to me why both early Greco's as early ink stamped Tokai's both have a dowel tenon, except for the fact that the people that made them worked in the same city.

Click to expand...

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15910



http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26422&start=15

I'm perfectly happy with the made in a Nagano factory for Tokai idea. Makes perfect sense from an economic point for Tokai.

meant to add this ages ago but it was on a tablet somewhere in the house.

Crazy...Btw, wasn't it Matsumoku that put "Made in Japan" on neck plates, or did Fujigen do that as well? Minus the Tokai logo of course.

Yeah, Matsu had MIJ on the neck plates (along with "Steel Reinforced Neck", "Steel Adjustable Neck" or "Matsumoku" through the years). As a rule, so did Fujigen, on Grecos together with a serial, but there are some models that for unknown reasons had just the serial for certain periods (late 70's SE700s, for instance). Both had Made In Japan in the same position on the lower third of the plate. Kiso Suzuki had MIJ as well, but on the upper third, and you see it on some Matsumoto Union builds (Freshers et al) too. I don't think the presence and/or position of it is necessarily consistent enough to be a true manufacturer tell for either, though.

But certainly I have NEVER seen that on a Tokai guitar.

That guitar looks like Koa too.

Must be mid 1970s?

hardyblade said:

Click to expand...

https://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=199666#p199666

I own a couple of Tokais that I can find absolutely no information about. Maybe someone else here knows, but they appear to be either special orders or part of a very limited run, All of the information I'm including here is based on my personal observation and conclusions.

First up is a 2018 LC-320BB. In 2018, the highest Custom in the catalog is the LC-230S. From what I can tell, the 2 main differences in my 320 and the 230 is:

• The 320 appears to have a solid 1 piece mahogany body (not a 2 piece back and top). I can find no evidence of a seam in any of the pickup or control cavities. I would also guess that it is Honduras mahogany given the high model number, but that's only a guess.
  The finish is a very thin satin lacquer that is simply gorgeous, IMO.

Beyond that, it has become one of my absolute favorites. It has a ringing, piano-like tone unplugged that translates well when amplified. I did replace the pickups with a set of K&T God Tones which are a perfect match. It plays as well as any guitar I have with a medium C neck. It has fret edge binding, and I'm not sure if the 230 has that as well.

I do have the warranty card that includes the model number and serial number, so I know the model number is correct.

Continuing on, next up as a 2015 LS-JW OR. I have no clue what this originally sold for or whether it's a one-off or limited run as I've never seen one like it from a recent run.

My guess is that JW stands for Joe Walsh and OR stands for Old Red finish color. To further that thought, my assumption is that this is a guitar built to be similar to the old 80s LS-100OR. Here's what I know:

• The body appears to be 1 piece of mahogany as there is no evidence of a top/bottom seam in any of the cavities. I wouldn't speculate whether the mahogany is Honduras or African.
  The deep red finish is all over, front to back. I believe the 100OR had a natural finished back, not red.
  The finish is lacquer, though I'm not sure is it's top lacquer or all lacquer.
  The rosewood fretboard is nice, but I would not speculate that it's Brazilian without confirmation. There is no fret edge binding on this one.

Like the Black Beauty above, it plays like a dream and has a nice warm tone. Right now it is all original with the original Tokai pickups, which are fine. But I may drop in my set of Rolph Pretender double creams to see if that makes a difference.

That Joe Walsh is wild. I started a thread about the LS100S version. I have the ON version but oddly mine is 1 over 1.

I also finally figured out that the "S" means Special model, not Solid. Found a translation in a discussion of the NC router in the Spring 1982 catalog.

Here’s a link to the Joe Walsh LS100S.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=26113&p=195708&hilit=Joe+Walsh#p195708

Btw, I think I came across a helpful post by you on the mylespaul forum discussing a Reborn Old. I started a thread on them in this section. Thanks for posting and sharing info. Very helpful!

1982 LS60 BB

Dot markers, unbound body.

Obviously like a Gibson LP Studio. Weird.

1982 Tokai Love Rock LS-60 (Serial # 2011220) in excellent playable and display condition. Mahogany neck, head stock is 14 degrees. Hand made bone nut.

Tokai did not make the 1982 LS-60 in a Black finish. According to the Tokai Registry the Black finish was available on the LS-50 and LS-80. The frets on this guitar are factory painted and appears to be a custom or factory knock off. It is a genuine 1982 Tokai Love Rock. It does not match records that can be found on the Tokai Registry Web Site however those records only indicate factory specifications not custom design or special order guitars. This is a rare original and offered at a great price.

As I mentioned Tokai has a registry web site you can verify the serial numbers of when and where factory Tokai guitars were made. I recommend anyone looking for a Tokai visit this site. Reverb does not allow me to post this for some reason. Just Google Tokai guitar registry.

Tokai became so efficient at making these guitars in the 1970’s and 1980’s that Gibson filed a law suit, demanding they halt production. Today, China makes a cheaper imitation but does not hold up to the early Japanese quality of these old Tokai’s. These Chinese and Korean Tokai copies sell all over eBay for a few hundred dollars and some reach for a premium price claiming to hold the quality that the early Japan models carry.

I've been told this guitar is better made than the newer Gibson's rolling off the production line. I think this Tokai under priced but the market sets the current value and what people are willing to pay.











https://reverb.com/item/3176190-198...hare&utm_campaign=listing&utm_content=3176190

1982 catalog.

Of course they made the LS60 in black, but it does not have dot fret markers or an unbound body.

This one is completely confusing.

First off, the neck plate does not seem to go with this guitar... Not sure where it came from. So let's set that aside.

Second, the neck and body codes are different. At least one month apart wihich is not a big deal, but the batchg number is also different. So not sure when the neck & body were put together?

Neck: 5=20 or 5-20 PA
Body: 4=6 WR Z

1979 Breezysound

OMG,that truss rod nut.

1989 or 1990 Mystery Love Rock - 3D Top Fotoflame?

1989 or 1990 LS65 ? 3D Top Love Rock In Germany

Seven string Custom Edition.

Seven String Custom Edition ?