Love Rock Headstock Veneer?

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Sigmania

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Edit: It seems like the material used for the Love Rock headstock veneer is likely related to date of mfr?

Up to 1981, plastic veneer. 1982-1985 wood veneer or painted wood?

From limited examples:

Plastic veneer:
LS80GT (1979)
LS80GT (1980) eBay in Japan
LS80 (1980) Fretboard.co.uk
LS80 (1980) Reverb
LS200 (1980) Cliff's as seen on Flickr
LS200 (1980) yamauchi web site
LS200 (1980) yamauchi site
LS200 (1980) mycoolguitars site
LS100ON (1981)
LS200 (1981) Reverb

Wood or wood veneer:
LS80 (1982) with a solid flamed top, FEB, one piece body
LS80 (1983) solid flamed top (mine)
LS150 (1983) villager's web site
LS80? (1984) another member's solid flame top, one piece back, no FEB present
LS200 (1985) Reverb

Would like to hear from Love Rock owners so I have more data points.





So I was just playing my 1981 LS100S and the sun was hitting the head stock and I saw that the veneer on the head stock does not line up with the rest of the head stock. :eek: As though it shrank, or was glued on AFTER the guitar was built?

I found some older threads on this topic and seems Tokai used plastic veneer on models up to LS200 and holly veneer on the LS200 and up?

This first guitar, my 1981 LS100S, looks like it could be plastic veneer that shrunk? I’m not seeing wood grain in the veneer on this guitar at first look.

I'll post a bunch of pictures at different angles.

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Here is the head stock on my 1982 LS80

Looks like the black is paint over the mahogany neck or stain on a holly wood veneer?

I found an old thread posted below where someone said the LS200 and LS320 had holly veneer.

This looks to me like wood and not plastic. I can see the wood grain through it. It’s either paint on the mahogany or a thin wood veneer.

Head scratcher.

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And my 1979 LS80GT Les Paul Reborn.

Looks really even. No obvious grain. Post below indicates this is probably a black plastic veneer.

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I found some old threads on this same topic.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3997&p=16702&hilit=Holly#p16702


ian said:
Yep, what Tops said (& excellent photo too 8)) ? I was fooled by same thing about a year back. It?s absolutely typical not only on Gibson copies but also on Gibson?s themselves, ie the black facia of headstock is a plastic-like plate glued onto the wooden headstock.

On Reborn?s the plastic that Tokai used often shrinks, so on early guitars it?s not uncommon to see it lifting away from the headstock, exactly as you described.

Far from being a fake or a "pup", it?s probably a good sign & confirms the guitar is genuine (nobody would make a fake fitted like that lol!).
 
http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2894&p=10176&hilit=Holly#p10176


supernout said:
ian said:
Hi Sneaky,

Thanks for that info. - yeah the rest of the guitar looks fine. Are those headstocks made in two pieces, ie sandwiched together :eek: ? On my old LS60 it just looks like a 1-piece headstock with the top face dyed back?

Ian.

usually they're made of 1p plus additonal side wings.

gibbos originals, historics, and tokai high ends (old 200, 320) have a aka "holy veneer" black tinted and laquered white wood on top of the headstock. on all other models it's usually black plastik veneer which sometimes tend to shrink a little. wood veneer easily crackles after some 10 to 20 years
 
To further add to the confusion, I recently sold a 1983 LS80 solid flame top (oval 80 sticker) with a two piece back (another Tokai anomaly for an LS80) that had some damage to the tip of the headstock clearly revealing a wood veneer under a lacquer finish.

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I have seen what your observations are; black plastic layer glued onto the head stock face, thin wood veneer face, and just some black paint.

I guess it all depends on the manufacture era & what Tokai was willing to put out the door.

All of my LS 'inkies' have the very thin wood veneer on the head stock face; it can be seen from both sides & the end of the head stock.
It's the same cherry color as the mahogany but just a few shades lighter. It's easy to spot & to photograph.
Imagine that; the lowly Nagano inkies got the real Gibson (head stock) treatment. :lol:

I'm curious now; I will have to dig down to the bottom of the wood pile & see what my 2000 LS-320 has. :)
 
Yeah. It’s interesting isn’t it?

Thankfully the plastic doesn’t affect the sound. :wink:
 
one very interesting attribute difference I have noticed between the regular production LS (Hamamatsu) examples and the 'inkie' (Nagano) production LS examples is the neck thickness. The 'inkies' typically have thicker necks, at least from examples I have had in my hands, and from my experience. :-? What is up wit dat?
 
All of the Tokais I have had have dated from 1979-1983, so I can’t help. The neck profiles on the ones I have had, STs, TEs, and LSs, have always been comfortable to me so I haven’t paid much attention.

I’m no expert, but I do know that their construction differs in some cases from early Strats, Teles, and Les Pauls, and it’s interesting to me when they are different.

The headstock material on these Love Rocks I posted is an interesting case. I had no idea that plastic was used on some pieces, and was surprised that it would shrink over time.

But again, that LS100S is about the best playing and sounding guitar I’ve ever played or owned. That’s why I said it doesn’t affect the sound, which is the most important thing to me.

But it is interesting. Part of the Tokai story and part of what makes these guitars unique it seems.
 
I just replaced the TRC on two of my Love Rocks that previous owners evidently switched for bell style TRCs. I found correct versions thanks to forum member Gottfried at Faber Guitars.

While I had the TRCs off I took some pictures showing cross sections inside the pocket for the truss rod.

I discovered that on my 1982 LS80 there is a hairline crack in the finish that I had never noticed before.

I’m not sure if it’s a thin wood veneer, or perhaps it is painted over the mahogany head stock, in which case the crack may just be in the paint or filler under the paint?

My guess is that if it were a holly wood veneer, that it would be tight straight grain running north/south, so that it would be odd to crack at an angle like this if it were wood veneer. Thinking it is simply painted.

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I'm not sure how these are made. Maybe someone out there can help me figure it out?

And also the 1981 LS100S with what seems to be a plastic veneer on the head stock.

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Top one isn't a wood grain fracture as you rightly surmise. I have no idea if the lower is a veneer of plastic but you have enough to cut a bit off with a scalpel, that won't be missed.
 
Thanks. Yep that lower one is surely the plastic veneer.

The top one seems to be paint directly over the mahogany neck material. I can see white primer and/or filler.

Pretty wild. I had always assumed they were the same and everyone was using a thin holly veneer like Gibson.

I had seen years ago how Japanese mfrs like Greco initially made 59 LP replicas based on photos, and not actual guitars in hand, but over time were able to get real guitars to study and replicate.

I'm wondering what was going on at Tokai? Anyone know or study this? I know the neck tenons are different than Gibson. Wondering what other parts are different?

And want to underscore that my Tokais sound amazing. Obviously headstock veneer has no negative effect on tone. :D
 
If your building your early models based on photos only, it isn't surprising that things are different and that corrections would need to introduced over time. Otherwise production would have to come to a complete halt for quite awhile as you used up existing stock parts, then modified the machine tools and re start.

Just the most likely scenario I imagine to be anyway.
 
So revisiting the old post quoted above by supernout, that LS200 and above had a holly veneer and below had this plastic veneer that was prone to shrinkage.

From my limited examples it seems that is not accurate. Here is what I have seen.

Plastic veneer:
LS80GT (1979)
LS80GT (1980) eBay in Japan
LS80 (1980) Fretboard.co.uk
LS80 (1980) Reverb
LS200 (1980) Cliff's as seen on Flickr
LS200 (1980) yamauchi web site
LS200 (1980) yamauchi site
LS200 (1980) mycoolguitars site
LS100ON (1981)
LS200 (1981) Reverb

Wood or wood veneer:
LS80 (1982) with a solid flamed top, FEB, one piece body
LS80 (1983) solid flamed top (mine)
LS150 (1983) villager's web site
LS80? (1984) another member's solid flame top, one piece back, no FEB present
LS200 (1985) Reverb
 
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Well... I think I just shot down that theory...

I found some pics that Cliff posted of his amazing 1980 LS200.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/147832065@N08/albums/72157709686156977/with/50483879968/

From what I can see of the pics he posted on Flickr, it looks like his head stock has the plastic veneer? I believe I am seeing some slight shrinkage of a plastic veneer over a finished mahogany substrate on the lower edge in the photo. Also, the spots where the edge is bumped show black all the way through like a plastic would.

Cliff if you see this, please let us know what you think the material is?

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If the material is not based on model, then what is it based on? Time period?

Both examples I have with wood (or painted) veneer/not plastic are from 1982 and 1983.
 
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