This is my new SS38, but is this really a Tokai?

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I am thinking that you may own a Fujigen-built Tokai and the key to a long running mystery in my opinion.

Just too much of a coincidence that both "inkie" Love Rocks and your guitar have the same odd features found on Fujigen guitars, made in a narrow window of time, interestingly right before Fujigen got the Fender contract that Tokai was bidding on in 1981/82.

Maybe there are other guitars out there with these features and they are not that unique, but it seems like a heck of a coincidence in my opinion. Will see what other folks think.
 
dramatolog said:
felis on Strat-talk mentioned that the 21 number means the guitar was made in a another factory >
the second digit (1) makes it a Nagano (Tokai's secondary factory) build. Tokai started this secondary factory for other clients using different brands, and for their own Tokai branded base models.

Yes, routing, serial number, Nagano plant, all described in Peter Mac great 'The Vintage Guitars' book.
 
Does Peter Mac make the connection with Fujigen?

It’s a helluva coincidence that the routing is the same as Fujigen’s, the neck joint on the inkies is the same as Fujigen’s, and Fujigen is In Nagano…

If there weren’t a connection with Fujigen, and the plant was actually a Tokai plant in Nagano, then why would the designs mimic Fujigen and not Tokai? It doesn’t make sense.

It seems more likely that the reason they are the same is that the tooling and the craftsmen were already in place to cut those routs and make those neck joints on the "inkies". In other words, the same factory.

Or maybe there is a third party that they both used in Nagano?

I just don’t believe Tokai opened its own factory in the same town as Fujigen, copied their years-old designs, and then shuttered it almost as soon as it opened.

Their pattern in the time since had been to subcontract for the lower priced models with builders who create cost savings in Korea and China rather than doing it themselves by opening new factories to save money.

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https://www.mylespaul.com/threads/vintage-tokai-ls-vs-lc.297087/
 
And just an observation, did anyone notice that Tokai picked a name for its CBS era strat that is surprisingly similar to the one Fujigen had been using for a few years at that point?

"Silver Series" and "Silver Star".

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In this post from 2010 jacco is struggling with the same thing that I am, and in spite of what a collector in Japan said, Hiroyuki Yamauchi, it still doesn't quite square.

The suggestion that there were 2 guitar factories in Matsumoto (Tokai and Matsumoku), both making guitars using Fujien patterns and construction methods, which are different than those used at Tokai in Hamamatsu doesn’t seem plausible. Seems more likely that one factory made guitars for both.

jacco said:
Here's an update on this subject.
I have had email contact with 2 Japanese guitar collectors and they both told me that there was indeed another Tokai factory besides Hamamatsu, one in Nagano (150 km up north). That's were the ink stamped Tokai's were made.
I will quote one here:

Konnichiwa Jacco,

Grecos were made in Matsumoku (Matsumoto Mokkou) factory
in Matsumoto, that was definitely different from Nagano
factory of Tokai Gakki in Matsumoto.

Best regards
Hiroyuki Yamauchi

So the Nagano branch of Tokai guitars stood in Matsumoto, same town were Greco's etc were made.
I was also told that because the traditional relationship between employer and employee in Japan it's unthinkable that employees worked in 2 factories at the same time.
It's still a mystery to me why both early Greco's as early ink stamped Tokai's both have a dowel tenon, except for the fact that the people that made them worked in the same city.

http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15910

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Anyone have a photo or a location for the mystery factory in Nagano?
 
I don't know if your mystery is solved, Sigmania, but I think you solved the mystery of my Tokai guitar :)

Thank you and thanks felixcatus too!

Now I will assume that I have a Tokai SS-38 from a different factory, probably from Fujigen where Ibanez 2375s, vintage Grecos and latter JV Fenders were made.

Here is a photo of an Ibanez 2375 Sigmania found in comparison to the routing on mine >

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Or a 1980's fender from FujiGen

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Link to Reverb: https://bit.ly/3a3WthO

compared to mine>

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In other words, I guess I ended up with an Ibanez 2375 that will latter become a Fender with a Tokai logo :) Not the outcome I was hoping for, but I guess there is now a justification why to search for another Tokai guitar in the future :D

Now, is this guitar better or worst just because it came out from a different factory, idk. I like it so far, but let's see when I swap out the pickups for something more to my liking.

Just an additional photo, to prove the attention to the details when it was made>

FstiGO0.jpg
 
In my opinion, and it’s just that, it’s still a mystery if there may be a third party builder that is a missing link that was contracting with both Fujigen AND Tokai.

Like Matsumoku…

https://www.vintagejapanguitars.com.br/en/matsumoku-gakki-en/

Many folks believe Tokai set up its own factory in Nagano. I’m challenging that assumption, but it’s my opinion and there’s a lack of evidence either way in my view.

Maybe someone in Japan knows?
 
I have too less of a knowledge on the topic, even all of this was a wild ride for me :)

But what I know is that Japanese companies rather help each other out, than to compete. For example, Nikon owns shares in Canon, and vice versa. I think there is also a story about the time when USA companies tried to compete on the Japanese market, they could not understand why the local companies did note buy goods from them, even if these goods from the USA were cheaper than those offered by Japanese companies. What I want to say is that this mutual respect is well established there. Therefore, I see no reason why Tokai would not contract FujiGen when it needed it, rather than opening a whole new factory for a short period?

Of course, all of these are just mare assumptions, unless someone can dig through their archives of contracts and put the puzzle together.
 
Just noticed that the 1976 Greco SE800 not only has the same routs, but also possibly has the "F" stamp. Can't believe I missed that.

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Here is another SS38 like mine. This one is from 1981, featuring the same second number in it serial as mine.

http://guitarsland.seesaa.net/article/457778981.html
 
That’s so cool. I’m going to work on translating that and see if there are any clues in there as to where it was made and by who? Thanks for posting that.
 
http://guitarsland.seesaa.net/article/457778981.html

Translation. Unfortunately, no new info on mfg.:

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Tokai Silver Star SS-36 at the time of the spaghetti logo It may be the best time to call it the Golden Age of Tokai, but ... I don't think this is the cheapest model in the lineup at the time of the entry class ... You can buy a guitar that is cheap but good. I think it is also a model that symbolizes the times. With a large head fender copy, it is surprising that a sound that can be used far more than Fender Japan, which uses basswood, will come out. While respecting the original parts of SS-36, I would like to introduce the process of playing back to make the sound immediately usable. There are many models of Japan Vintage instruments that are worth playing ... Tokai's high-end models at this time had a complete premier price, and LS Les Paul copies etc. were traded at more than double the list price at that time. If it was made in 1980-1982, which can be called the golden age, there is still a lot to aim for. This is because the so-called entry-class model is incomparable to the modern entry-class model for a practical guitar

Let's start with the internal image of SS-36

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The material is alder. The number of pieces looks like 5 pieces. That said, the coloring under the pickguard is copied as well as the original. The shape of the counterbore is roughly SS-36, but at that time the list price was only 4,000 yen higher, and the internal counterbore and processing were also different.

The image below is an internal image of SS-40. The material is two pieces of Sen

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For the head family in the latter half of the 70's, it was the white ash period, so I think it was an accurate point of view to choose Sen, which is called Japanese ash. If there is a Tsukkomi place, SS-40 is a white pick guard and white parts, so if you want to match it with the original family with high vintage value before 74 to 75 years, SS-36 that adopted Alder is white. I wanted it to be a guard and a white knob, but in the case of 36, Linden etc. are also posted as body materials in addition to Alder, so I could not do it. The SS-36 is a black pickguard, which is a specification from the latter half of 1976 in the so-called head family of black parts. At that time, it was the same alder wood as the head family! It was a sales talk, and in the domestic copy of the 70's, wood materials such as silver heart and sen, which are not listed in the head family, were listed in the catalog as a matter of course. It was a thankful sound just to say Alder. The Tokai gray bobbin pickups up to around 1980 will also be a new and improved version of the black bobbin from 1981. The pickup of SS-36 made in 1981 is New SS-HOT.

The image below is the inside of this individual. It is in the original state without replacement parts

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It goes well with Alder, and it was in the midst of a boom called heavy metal from hard rock, so this pickup has a sense of power and goes well with a Marshall-type distorted amp. Outstandingly good. Of course, the SS series has a better sound quality than the ST series, which is a small head that uses an oldies model. However, I just named it hot, so I thought it was necessary to take measures against noise, so I decided to stick an aluminum shield plate inside. At this point, the rust on the bridge was also severe

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If the rust is severe, the set screw may not turn and adjustment may not be possible, so of course rust removal should be done as long as possible. It is an essential part for Japan Vintage reproduction. Even if you make a mistake, you must not make full use of brute force. Screws and parts It just breaks the item

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It's hard to remove each saddle, but it's not a recycle shop, and it's very difficult to see that only the used distribution market price is searched online and priced at the current sales. I feel sorry. Old instruments are all the same as junk if you don't take the trouble ... There is no point in cleaning only the top surface. I'm grateful for the die-cast integrated block now ... The words "Made in Japan" come to mind ... Take extra time around the frets and neck, which directly affect play. Fill in the unevenness and steps caused by the scratches on the back of the neck, and finish it so that it feels comfortable to the touch

There were some steps on the body top due to scratches and dents on the poly surface, but the surface will be prepared by various methods. It will be a careful work as if you are peeling off a thin skin

Compounds, chemicals similar to buffing effect and high-grade cloth I will finish it by polishing with. Eliminates unevenness and automatically In the process up to this point, the dirt on the surface is also removed. The best setup that Mr. Imai, who was the owner of Historic Guitars in Ochanomizu and also wrote various books, applied to all products started by understanding and cleaning all the parts. I was influenced by Mr. Imai, and if I wanted to sell used, vintage, and used musical instruments at market prices, wouldn't it be convincing for the first time? It seems that it is operating while reducing the scale, but I haven't seen it easily for more than 15 years, but I learned a lot from Mr. Imai, who had a knowledgeable part in the guitar graphic. If you want to get the same price as the market price at the thrift shop, do you want to do it so far? Do you sell it cheaply at the junk price? This is especially true in an era where you can search by searching for the spread of the Internet

In this state, there are many cases where the market price is as high as the market price, so I hope that a major musical instrument store, which is increasing the number of business trip purchases and purchase specialty stores nationwide, will do its best. Mochi should be in the mochi shop ・ ・ ・ I don't want to sell musical instruments with refrigerators, washing machines, and home appliances, and if they do, they should be as cheap as old thrift shops. If it's cheap, you can save it, because there are many musical instruments to rescue. I think that there is also a sales responsibility if the price is at the same level as the market price. That is why I really want the musical instruments to be in the musical instrument store. Let's return to the playback of SS-36. The weaknesses common to the entry class SS-36 and SS-40 Think of it as a peg

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If you don't want to spoil the appearance of the large head model, you may choose to replace it with the current Fender F Key. Currently, tuning is possible without problems, but if it is durable and accurate, it will be a rotomatic type from the middle class SS-48, so one of the points of grade discrimination of Tokai Silver Star is to distinguish by peg type. Can be done. It seems that there are shops that set prices as if they have similar value to TST after 1984, but Tokai Rakuki went bankrupt once in 1984 due to the litigation issue from the head family. .. The period until 1986, when Tokai Gakki was restarted due to the application of the Corporate Rehabilitation Law, is not called the golden age, so it is considered that the period until 1983 is the last minute golden age. Please pay attention to the year when you purchase by looking at the price of Japan Vintage Tokai. That is why it is written as the spaghetti logo time. Frets after cleaning and filing. There is no stress

The liver of 3 points stop, the micro tilt part is also copied and reproduced Since it is done, it is adjusted with a slight angle. There is no stress even in the high fret part, and the string height is also appropriate. It's up

The body back is also erased with thin scratches as much as possible. Only the surface of the 3 bolt screw loses its shine due to the influence of rust. Yes, but it can be attached and detached and adjusted without any problems

Unless it's a very mint product, it's worth doing because Japan Vintage can finally be played as a good-sounding instrument or guitar after spending time and effort like this. I think there is not only the atmosphere but also the level that can be used as a side guitar. This is the one I want you to play with a drive sound directly from Marshall. I can't tell you the story, but I've adjusted the tremolo perfectly, so I think I can decide on arming and use it as a hard rock strat. The era when there were cheap but good guitars and usable guitars ... I think the Japan Vintage is a really affordable practical guitar unless you add more value than necessary. Finally, I would like to add that I disagree with excessive premier prices.
 

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