WHY Do Tokai & Tokai Sellers List Jacaranda as Brazilian

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guitar hiro

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For a very long time I have wondered WHY do many Japanese guitar makers list Jacaranda as Brazilian (rosewood)?

So, the recent History/LS-320 thread got me wondering anew, why do Japanese guitar makers/sellers often list Jacaranda as Brazilian rosewood?

Here is a Digimart search for 'Tokai Jacaranda.'
https://www.digimart.net/search?category12Id=359&keywordAnd=jacaranda+tokai+&x=0&y=0
Notice many entries list the fingerboard material as "Jacaranda (Brazilian Rose wood)."


Here is a link for Jacaranda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacaranda_mimosifolia
From the same link here is what Jacaranda looks like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacaranda_mimosifolia#/media/File:Jacaranda_mimosifolia00.jpg
The sample photo for Jacaranda looks nothing like Brazilian rosewood aka Dalbergia Nigra.
Jacaranda is not even the same genus of plant as Dalbergia rosewoods.

So, this is actually more confusing than I had previously believed it was.

Why would Tokai, or any Tokai seller list guitar fingerboards as "Jacaranda (Brazilian rosewood)" when Jacaranda is a different genus than Brazilian & when many Jacaranda samples has no physical resemblance to many genus Dalbergia lumbers?

Does this lend more credence to fingerboards listed as Jacaranda/Brazilian & that actually look like a genus Dalbergia lumbar, as actually being Brazilian rosewood? I don't know.
What say ye?

Here is a Google search for 'Jacaranda lumber' in which some samples looks similar to Brazlian & then other samples are nearly white in color :-?
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1366&bih=654&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=ZvK3W7W0FcWSjwSKj73YBw&q=jacaranda+lumber&oq=jacaranda+lumber&gs_l=img.3..0i24.26191.33999..34574...0.0..0.77.491.7......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i67j0i10i24.paDiZmYRiAA#imgrc=_
 
I been down this road before. The term jacaranda IN JAPANESE, as in ハカランis a name for Brazilian Rosewood. It does not equivalent to Jacaranda in English. When It is written as Jacaranda in catalogs it is referring to the Japanese meaning as a name for Brazilian Rosewood.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B8%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%83%89
 
In a recent thread we encountered the same issue with the word 'condenser' in the catalogue when the English version should be 'capacitor'.

Apparently the word condenser is close to what is used in other European languages but in English is is the thing you have in your clothes dryer to collect water vapour!
 
8) the japanese guitar industry probably began with the classical guitars first historically. so the languages they use for the guitar making are often spanish/portuguese. "jacaranda" & "condenser" are the spanish/portuguese words.
 
I think we used to use the word condenser in the UK, before we used the word capacitor in electronic circuitry.
 
In fact there was a company near me that was called Daly Condensers, that actually made capacitors.
 
wulfman said:
I been down this road before. The term jacaranda IN JAPANESE, as in ハカランis a name for Brazilian Rosewood. It does not equivalent to Jacaranda in English. When It is written as Jacaranda in catalogs it is referring to the Japanese meaning as a name for Brazilian Rosewood.

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%96%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B8%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%83%BB%E3%83%AD%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BA%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%83%89

Yo Harold, So are you saying that the Japanese are actually using Brazilian rosewood & just calling it Jacaranda in catalogs & in listings?
That's basically what I'm getting from your explanation.
They could have made this all a bit easier if they would just call it what it is :lol:
 
Hi guys,

this is an interesting thread, I must say.
The reason they may list it as 'Jacaranda' and not Brazilian Rosewood could be because of Appendix III of the 1974 C.I.T.I.E.S. Treaty which virtually abolished the use and export of Brazilian Rosewood.
Thing is, from 1977 to 1986 the ONLY model to have Jacaranda listed as a fretboard material was the JB-120 Jazz Bass.
In a search for Jacaranda with a variety of Lumber Vendors, they all came back as Dalbergia nigra as the species. Cool, as we have shitloads of Jacaranda trees growing here in Australia.
 
Old thread but I like the comments posted; some real eye openers in the above posts. :cool:

I ran across an article that really got my attention.
The article is by a Mr. Gene Wengert.
Mr. Wengert seems to be quite accomplished in the world of botany and in particular the world of trees and the associated lumbers that can be harvested from trees.
Here is a URL with some back ground info on Mr. Wengert.
https://www.woodweb.com/gene_wengert/Quote from the URL:
"Gene Wengert is President of The Wood Doctor's Rx LLC, Bishop, GA, and Professor Emeritus at the University of Wisconsin-Madison.
As a former professor and extension specialist at Virginia Tech and researcher at the US Forest Products Lab, Gene teaches over 30 practical wood processing classes and seminars a year for the wood products industry, including sawing, edging, grading, drying, machining and gluing.
Gene is the author of eight practical books and has published over 400 articles relating to the wood products industry."

So, it would seem that Mr. Wengert may have some expertise in the area of wood, lumber, etc.

So, here is the (2013) article by Mr. Wengert that really got my attention.
https://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/magazine/fdmc-magazine/brazilian-rosewoodHere is the very first paragraph from the article.
"Brazilian rosewood, also called jacaranda, is perhaps one of the most beautiful woods in the world. However, extensive harvesting over the past three centuries has virtually eliminated this tree from the Brazilian forests, so that today it is not supposed to be harvested. The only material that can be sold legally is old stock; such material has to display a CITES Certificate, noting special approval. As might be expected, the wood is extremely expensive."

So, is Mr. Wengert preaching BS or is Mr. Wengert stating real and true info?


I really like the idea that TF member Peter Mac put forth in his post #12.
There may be a lot of truth in that concept.


Is 'Jacaranda' really Brazilian Rosewood, or is Brazilian Rosewood really Jacaranda?


We may have to check with the tooth fairy to find out the truth
 
My understanding has been that jacaranda is Brazilian rosewood, not that I know with any certainty, but anything I ever read in in the past has said as much.
There are some new high-end Love Rock models that have jacaranda fret boards that I’d like to own, but I fear they can’t be imported into the US.
 
Part of the problem, if not the whole problem, is the use of common names as opposed to the Latin binomial of genus and species.

There is no end to the list of examples of a single common name used for multiple species and vice versa. Ash is another example. Or poplar. Or even rosewood and mahogany.

Peter Mac was pointing at this because Jacaranda is also a name for a very common tree in Australia that many consider a weed. Not the same tree.

Brazilian rosewood is generally accepted to mean Dalbergia nigra.

Dalbergia nigra - Wikipedia


Note that Wikipedia lists 10 different common names for this one species. Bahia rosewood, jacarandá-da-Bahia, Brazilian rosewood, Rio rosewood, jacarandá-do-brasil, pianowood, caviúna, graúna, jacarandá-una or obuina

Note that one of the common names is “Jacaranda-do-Brazil”. So Jacaranda may simply mean rosewood in some circles?

And Wikipedia tells us that “Jacaranda” can refer to at least 49 different species.

Jacaranda - Wikipedia

“The name is of South American (more specifically Tupi-Guarani) origin, meaning fragrant.”


So to really know you have to have the genus and species, but specs don’t give us that much detail.
 
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I found this to further confuse the issue…

That Jacaranda is a subspecies that was planted in Indonesia a few hundred years ago by a Dutchman…

Most compelling explanation I’ve seen yet for the wood with the braided grain figuring of many Japanese acoustics.

Jacaranda Rosewood

Jacaranda Rosewood

The family of Jacaranda Rosewood is Leguminosae, and its genus is Dalbergia. Many people in Indonesia believe that it is a subspecies of dalbergia nigra (Brazilian Rosewood)…. Many Indonesian people believe that the Dutch colonial has planted the seed of dalbegia nigra in 18th century in Indonesia, because it tends to be closer to dalbegia nigra than to any other rosewood species. They are different in their smell and hardness. Dalbergia nigra is sweeter and denser than this Jacaranda Rosewo0d, but the later is sweeter and denser than Indian Rosewood. Because of this, according to some people, Jaracanda Rosewood has the most ideal tap tone among rosewood species. Please remember that it is not from Brazil, so it is not Brazilian Rosewood. Do not confuse them. Until now, there are some controversies about this Jacaranda Rosewood, especially about its species. There is no scientific research on it. The name "Jacaranda Rosewood" is not a scientific name given by scientists, but it is a name given by Indonesian villagers from generation to generation. The Jacaranda Rosewood trees grow only in just two small areas in Indonesia.

AB483212-1EE1-4A43-A26D-E4B05B28EC66.jpeg
 

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I found this to further confuse the issue…

That Jacaranda is a subspecies that was planted in Indonesia a few hundred years ago by a Dutchman…

Most compelling explanation I’ve seen yet for the wood with the braided grain figuring of many Japanese acoustics.

Jacaranda Rosewood

Jacaranda Rosewood

The family of Jacaranda Rosewood is Leguminosae, and its genus is Dalbergia. Many people in Indonesia believe that it is a subspecies of dalbergia nigra (Brazilian Rosewood)…. Many Indonesian people believe that the Dutch colonial has planted the seed of dalbegia nigra in 18th century in Indonesia, because it tends to be closer to dalbegia nigra than to any other rosewood species. They are different in their smell and hardness. Dalbergia nigra is sweeter and denser than this Jacaranda Rosewo0d, but the later is sweeter and denser than Indian Rosewood. Because of this, according to some people, Jaracanda Rosewood has the most ideal tap tone among rosewood species. Please remember that it is not from Brazil, so it is not Brazilian Rosewood. Do not confuse them. Until now, there are some controversies about this Jacaranda Rosewood, especially about its species. There is no scientific research on it. The name "Jacaranda Rosewood" is not a scientific name given by scientists, but it is a name given by Indonesian villagers from generation to generation. The Jacaranda Rosewood trees grow only in just two small areas in Indonesia.

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That is interesting information from the supplier of acoustic guitar sets that utilize what could be Indonesian grown dalbergia nigra aka brazilain rosewood.

If and I state if, if these centuries old dalbergia genus trees in Indonesia were indeed the product of the species dalbergia nigra when these centuries old plantations were originally seeded with whatever seed stock they used then the trees produced would technically be dalbergi nigra.

If that is the case and I'm not saying that it is but if that is the case then the Indonesian geographic location and the Indonesian soil would not change the technical genetics of the resulting plant.

If the above is the case then anyone could call the resulting lumber Indonesian rosewood, Brazilian rosewood, Jacaranda, etc., you get the idea but the species would still be whatever the seed stock and/or graft origin originally was.
Of course we likely won't ever know what the original seed stock and/or graft origin species was.


What is interesting is that Honduran mahogany (Swietenia macrophylla) was brought to Fiji in the early 1900s as an ornamental.
Commercial harvesting of Swietenia macrophylla aka Honduran mahogany from Fiji began in the early 2000s.
The Swietenia macrophylla grown in Fiji is still often referred to as Honduran mahogany even though the lumber isn't grown in Honduran soil.
Gibson (yep, that guitar maker) has used Swietenia macrophylla grown and harvested in Fiji for some time and they call it, guess what? Yep, Honduran mahogany.
Fun stuff.
 
One other funny observation:

literature for the 2000 Tokai LS-320 list the fingerboard material as "Jacaranda"

literature for the early/mid 2000s original run of Momose MLS-STD/J list the fingerboard material as "Jacaranda"

I have heard several folks state that without a doubt the 2000 LS-320 Jacaranda fingerboard is indeed Braz.

Pretty much every single one of those same folks tell me that the original run of MLS-STD/J Jacaranda fingerboard is NOT Braz.

What a hoot!
 
Yikes. Messy.

We use the word "Jakaranda" in Swedish, and just for fun, I looked it up in the Swedish-language version of Wikipedia, which has it as trade name for a range of hardwoods used in fine woodworking. The highest quality supposedly comes from Jacaranda brasiliana and J. mimosifolia, but wood from the Dalbergia and Machaerium species are also sold as "Jakaranda". It also states that Dalbergia nigra is also known as "riojakaranda", i e "Rio Jacaranda", which kind of works with "Brazilian Rosewood".

Seriously, looking at it from the lumber trader's viewpoint, it makes sense to lump several similar species together under a single trade name. It would make them less dependent on a single supply chain and ensure a steady stock of "the same" wood. If the lumber trade used the same blanket terms globally is another matter, though.

I don't know, but my luthier says that the only way to tell (what he calls) "brazilian rosewood" is by how it smells when you work on it. I don't normally deal with super-high-end guitars (out of my price range - especially these days), but there have been a few random cases of rosewood fretboards being quite fragrant when I've cleaned them up, and not always in higher-end guitars. I'm kind of wondering if the Japanese manufacturers necessarily could always tell the various specii apart themselves, or just went with good-looking pieces of the wood their lumber supplier sold to them as "jacaranda"? In other words, do we even know if the term "Jacaranda" as used by Japanese luthiers denotes a single type of wood?

The truth, as always, is out there, I guess.
 
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