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Tokai LS120 Reborn old 1980 Eu SOLD!!

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from what you have seen ... and how many egf 1200s have you owned? or 1800s? i would guess a lot less than me.. all 1980 1200s are specced in the catalog as braz..
1981 not so sure, all 1800s are braz.. unless you own them and look at them in real life then you are not qualified to comment .. as far as i have seen no old tokais are braz but many new ones are ..

i dont think the guys who bought the wood and dealt with the wood suppliers in the 80s were confused.. they were running a business and to get things right was an essential part of the japanese psyche, so i respectfully disagree with you.. i think they had a lot more hands on experience of wood supply than you do...
 
lol thats what the internet is for to debate points... from my experience i believe i know what braz looks and smells like .. but of course i may be wrong... having said that is is totally irrelevant to the overall tone..

so what do you say about this?





 
ok so here is the tokai HLS-BZF here is the link to the specs...

http://www.musicland.co.jp/content/003/tokai-hls-bzf-std/

here is the board....



so is this braz? or are they just lying? 6 produced i think that says it all...

not all braz is visually stunning....
 
heres another ls-320 jacaranda board.. confused? dont think so.. this is 2002 when everyone knew exactly what the wood was..and for them to actually promote it as braz, then i think it actually will be!!



 
villager said:
from what you have seen ... and how many egf 1200s have you owned? or 1800s? i would guess a lot less than me.. all 1980 1200s are specced in the catalog as braz..
1981 not so sure, all 1800s are braz.. unless you own them and look at them in real life then you are not qualified to comment .. as far as i have seen no old tokais are braz but many new ones are ..

i dont think the guys who bought the wood and dealt with the wood suppliers in the 80s were confused.. they were running a business and to get things right was an essential part of the japanese psyche, so i respectfully disagree with you.. i think they had a lot more hands on experience of wood supply than you do...

I don't know where they were able to find braz in 1978/1982 because there were no export since 1968. Old stocks weren't trackable and Gibson and Fender went to indian rosewood after 1965.

Mark, I'm always talking about the mij golden era, not the guitar of today or after 1992. I have seen recent guitars with real braz fretboard.

I have seen a bunch of 1200's and compare them with my older Gibson and Epiphone. Plus, I have seen and played many vintage guitars so I know what is a braz rosewood on a fretboard with grain and colours variations...

The picture of your 1980 EGF-1800 is detailed enought to see the pore structure is an indian rosewood.
 
well the catalogue say jacaranda and thats good enough for me... all the japanese experts on greco agree that 1800s are braz.. you seem to be the only dissenting voice...but you are entitled to your opinion...
 
villager said:
ok so here is the tokai HLS-BZF here is the link to the specs...

http://www.musicland.co.jp/content/003/tokai-hls-bzf-std/

here is the board....



so is this braz? or are they just lying? 6 produced i think that says it all...

not all braz is visually stunning....
The structure of the pores looks like braz, I agree. :wink:

But the next guitar looks like the honduras I have on my 2007 N-TE. :eek:
 
From http://ksa242.izhranma.org/jvguitars_greco_eg-series.ru.html and info at http://brochures.yokochou.com/guitar-and-amp/greco/1980-2/en_index.html and my Greco pickup post http://forum.japanaxe.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=768 I'm able to post the complete 1980 Greco Super Real catalogue English specs.

EGF1800: Mahogany one layer body, Flame Maple two piece top, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Brazilian Rosewood Fingerboard, Dry Z pickups.

EGF1000: Mahogany one layer body, Flame Maple two piece top, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Brazilian Rosewood Fingerboard, PAF DiMarzio pickups (DP103?).

EG1000CB, EG1000CBS, EG1000CR: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black, Black Sunburst, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, Dry Z pickups.

EG900B, EG900R, EG900S, EG900T: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black, Red Sunburst, Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Indian Rosewood Fingerboard, PAF DiMarzio pickups (DP103?).

EGF850: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Indian Rosewood Fingerboard, PU-2 pickups.

Nitro finish for the models above and poly finish for the models below but from new information and acetone tests, some EG500-EG800 (50,000-80,000 Yen) Super Real models have a Nitro finish. Also some early 1982-1985 lower model Mint Collection Grecos such as the EGC57-60 (60,000 Yen) model with Screamin pickups have been found to have a nitro finish.

EG800GS: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Gold finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, Hot Lick P-90 type pickups.

EG800CB, EG800CBS, EG800CR: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black, Black Sunburst, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, PU-2 pickups.

EG800PB (Peter Frampton 3 pickups): Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, U-2000 pickups.

EG800PR (Ace Frehley 3 pickups): Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, U-2000 pickups.

EG800B, EG800R, EG800S, EG800T: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black, Red Sunburst, Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Indian Rosewood Fingerboard, PU-2 pickups.

EG700B, EG700R, EG700S, EG700T, EG700G: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black, Red Sunburst, Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst, Gold finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, U-2000 pickups.

EG600PB (Peter Frampton 3 pickups): Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Black finish, Mahogany neck, Ebony Fingerboard, U-1000 pickups.

EG600PR (Ace Frehley 3 pickups): Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany neck, Ebony Fingerboard, U-1000 pickups.

EG500B, EG500R, EG500S, EG500T: Mahogany body, Maple three piece top, Black, Red Sunburst, Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, U-1000 pickups.

EG500CB, EG500CR: Mahogany body, Maple three piece top, Black, Red Sunburst finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, UD pickups.

EG500J (Jeff Beck): Mahogany body, Maple three piece top, Dark Green finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, U-1000 pickups.

EG500GS: Mahogany body, Maple three piece top, Gold finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, UD-DX pickups (mini humbuckers?).

Super Real logos for all of the above models and no logos for the models below.

Fret edge binding for all of the above models and no fret edge binding and sometimes chambered bodies for the models below.

EG480R, EG480S: Mahogany body, Flamed Sycamore top, Red Sunburst, Sunburst finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, UD pickups.

EG450B, EG450R, EG450S, EG450T: Mahogany body, Sycamore top, Black, Red Sunburst, Sunburst, Tobacco Sunburst finish, Mahogany neck, Rosewood Fingerboard, UD pickups.
 
the next one is a 2002 ls-320 stated as braz board, highest model at the time.. as are the 540s now, it may not look to you like its braz, but if tokai say it is then ... sorry i believe them...
 
I have this guitar from 1980 (a great guitar really, I love it) :

"EG800GS: Mahogany one layer body, Maple two piece top, Gold finish, Mahogany one piece neck, Ebony Fingerboard, Hot Lick P-90 type pickups."

I don't know where they were able to find an ebony looking like a rosewood... :D
Nothing to compare with the ebony fretboard of my '63 Crestwood custom.

Another mistake ? I don't know why they were writing informations like this on their catalogue if it's wrong.

I'll stop it, I forget I'm not an expert because I have not own enough guitars. :D

I prefer to go and see the real life outside of the catalogues.

Have a nice day guys.
 
Apparently Japan did not sign the CITES treaty until 1980 so whatever Brazilian was imported and hoarded before then must have gone somewhere.
 
Has anyone tried the fluorescence tests on their suspected woods? It's supposed to be very reliable and easy to do, a utility knife to scrape a minute amount off the board is probably all that's needed along with a blacklight.

May even work by comparing the fluorescence of a water wet swab against an ethanol wet swab of the board for fluorescence, which I think is pretty much what the authorities use these days to test, albiet better solvents and lights. Although considering the CITES regs for the EU you're probably better off not knowing for certain.

http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrp/fpl_rp632.pdf
 
Hi guys,

this is a fun thread for sure . . so lets get some facts straight.
There are 2 types of Brazilian Rosewood - Old World and New World. (New World is replanted R'wood over 30 yrs ago, Old World trees are 100's of years old)
CITES treaty was signed by USA in 1974, by Japan in 1982. If Brazil did stop exporting Old World BRF in 1968 that explains a few things.
To the best of my research and knowledge NO Tokai built between 1978 and 1986 ever had a Brazilian board regardless of Model - this includes LS-200.
In the late '70s there were still great stocks of Old World Indian and Sth Amer. rosewood available at a much cheaper prices than Braz, that economics dictated using them instead.

Hope these help the discussion

Peter Mac
 
Some months ago I talked to a guy making expertises to legalize guitars with braz board due to the situation in germany regarding cites and brazilian rosewood.He told me that he could never say by looking at detailed pictures if it is braz or not as variations are possible and common.He also said he must have every guitar on his table and sometimes needs a small sample of the wood to be 100% sure what it is.
 
Peter Mac said:
Hi guys,

this is a fun thread for sure . . so lets get some facts straight.
There are 2 types of Brazilian Rosewood - Old World and New World. (New World is replanted R'wood over 30 yrs ago, Old World trees are 100's of years old)
CITES treaty was signed by USA in 1974, by Japan in 1982. If Brazil did stop exporting Old World BRF in 1968 that explains a few things.
To the best of my research and knowledge NO Tokai built between 1978 and 1986 ever had a Brazilian board regardless of Model - this includes LS-200.
In the late '70s there were still great stocks of Old World Indian and Sth Amer. rosewood available at a much cheaper prices than Braz, that economics dictated using them instead.

Hope these help the discussion

Peter Mac
Thanks, that what I was trying to explain, it was impossible to have the same wood as Gibson and Fender before 1965, because of the export ban.
Old braz come from a very small region of East Brazil. Now, people are confused with brazilian rosewood and rosewood export from Brazil, not the same wood, as you said, South America rosewood.
 
ibicus said:
Some months ago I talked to a guy making expertises to legalize guitars with braz board due to the situation in germany regarding cites and brazilian rosewood.He told me that he could never say by looking at detailed pictures if it is braz or not as variations are possible and common.He also said he must have every guitar on his table and sometimes needs a small sample of the wood to be 100% sure what it is.

No, with a very detailed (High res) you can easily check the shape of the pores and the wood lines. It's more easy with the guitar in hands. Just the experience of checking many vintage guitars made before 1965 can help to identify braz...
 

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