Convince me... Why Tokai over a Gibson

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crimsonfire said:
Mick51 said:
Can't and won't address the question you've asked. Your mileage and experience, expectations, etc, won't match mine. Try them, play them, let your ears and your fingers and your mind make the decision. Only you know how you want a guitar to sound and play.

Then, let us know in six months or so what you chose, how it plays, and how satisfied you are. I'm always willing to consider another's experience.

Trust me, If I could try one firsthand, I would have. I wouldn't even bother posting this question here. I live in Los Angeles and NONE of my friends and NONE of their friends have a Tokai. In fact, they all snicker at the thought of some guitar called a Tokai being able to match or even be better than a Gibson.

Oh yeah, I'm also a lefty. Tell me, if you were a lefty, how easy would it be for you to find super quality lefty guitars to try out? It's not like I can walk into a Guitar Center, pick up a R8 and play it to my hearts content. So NO, I can't "Try them, play them, let your ears and your fingers and your mind make the decision."

This is why I'm asking those who have experience firsthand with Tokai's. I want to gather as much honest input/opinions as I can so that I can make the right decision for myself. The Tokai or Gibson will be the ONLY expensive guitar that I will ever buy.

I DON'T have multiple guitars like those of you here. In fact, I only have an Epiphone Les Paul Custom. I play for fun, I don't gig or anything like that, but I still want to have an excellent guitar, for my own personal enjoyment. The bedroom rocker.

I like the Les Paul Custom, and Tokai makes a version of this guitar. People who own them say that they are on par or better than Gibson's.
That's why I'm here, yeah, I have enough money to buy a Gibson, but if there is something better for a fraction of the price then I'm definitely going to consider it. I could careless about the name on the headstock. All I care about is the sound and quality. If the Tokai really does sound just as good, if not better than a Gibson, then my choice is an easy one to make.

I will ask again, why a Tokai over a Gibson?

I could write 10 pages of experiences I've had playing Tokais side by side with Gibsons and Fenders.
How about just today, playing Tokai TTE50 Teles up against the new Fender "Select" Tele models.
It's a joke, the "Selects" are about 3 times the price, it was a stalemate, there is no difference, the only difference we found is that the TTE50s were more mellow, warmer sounding.
No difference in quality, no difference in feel and playability...the price difference is the name on the headstock.
I wont mention the 'paper' shim we found in the neck joint of one of the "Selects".

I got 120 guitars from Tokai in one order.
I didn't find a flaw/defect on any one of them.
Every one had the potential to be setup perfectly...my guitar tech never spends more than 10 minutes setting up a Tokai...sometimes just 5 minutes.
In fact, I know of dozens of guitarists who have bought Tokais from music stores and never had them setup, they've gigged with them for years using the factory setup.

Try checking out 120 Gibsons...good luck, they'll keep a guitar tech busy for 6 months.
Just checking out a dozen or so in one store I've seen flaws ranging from uneven frets, badly cut nuts, nuts cut too low, file marks on the neck binding, rough fretboards, body binding not flush with the body, crooked tuner, areas not polished properly, filler visible around the neck joint, neck carve not rounded/finished properly...etc, etc.
All this on guitars that have hollowed out bodies and a low quality neck joint...2 invisible flaws right there.

Lets put it this way.
If Gibson contracted Tokai to make their Gibsons (like Fender did), you'd be reading on the internet about how Gibson quality has suddenly drastically improved.

Have you ever read a review of a MIJ Tokai that said the guitar didn't sound good?
 
Diamond said:
I could write 10 pages of experiences I've had playing Tokais side by side with Gibsons and Fenders.
How about just today, playing Tokai TTE50 Teles up against the new Fender "Select" Tele models.
It's a joke, the "Selects" are about 3 times the price, it was a stalemate, there is no difference, the only difference we found is that the TTE50s were more mellow, warmer sounding.
No difference in quality, no difference in feel and playability...the price difference is the name on the headstock.
I wont mention the 'paper' shim we found in the neck joint of one of the "Selects".

I got 120 guitars from Tokai in one order.
I didn't find a flaw/defect on any one of them.
Every one had the potential to be setup perfectly...my guitar tech never spends more than 10 minutes setting up a Tokai...sometimes just 5 minutes.
In fact, I know of dozens of guitarists who have bought Tokais from music stores and never had them setup, they've gigged with them for years using the factory setup.

Try checking out 120 Gibsons...good luck, they'll keep a guitar tech busy for 6 months.
Just checking out a dozen or so in one store I've seen flaws ranging from uneven frets, badly cut nuts, nuts cut too low, file marks on the neck binding, rough fretboards, body binding not flush with the body, crooked tuner, areas not polished properly, filler visible around the neck joint, neck carve not rounded/finished properly...etc, etc.
All this on guitars that have hollowed out bodies and a low quality neck joint...2 invisible flaws right there.

Lets put it this way.
If Gibson contracted Tokai to make their Gibsons (like Fender did), you'd be reading on the internet about how Gibson quality has suddenly drastically improved.

Have you ever read a review of a MIJ Tokai that said the guitar didn't sound good?

Diamond, you're a dealer right? Give it to me straight, no bs sales pitch or anything like that, how does the premium series lc200 compare to the vintage series lc107 when it comes to sound?

There's like a $1000 difference in price there. Is all of that just for the bling (1 piece vs 2 piece body and etc) or does that money actually translate into the lc200 having better sounds? That's all I really care about. They both have the same pickups right? If they both sound the same then I'll take the lc107. Like I said, no bs, give it to me straight between these two guitars.

Another thing, you probably don't have either of these guitars in stock for a lefty, but could you get me one? Also, If I choose the lc107, can you get me one with ebony fingerboard instead of the rosewood that comes with it? If you can get the guitars, PM me with the price and details.
 
One thing I can say for the LS models is that you're paying for diminishing returns. My LS150 is a beautiful sounding LP, but really, the difference between it and an LS93 is pretty minimal. Mostly you're paying for the chunk of body wood (and a flame top on some models) and the hardware and electronics - which you can mostly simply change out yourself.

The mid-ranged MIJs like Tokai Vintage range are really the greatest bang-for-buck. But saying that, a person likes what they like. I wanted all the vintagy stuff and got the LS150.

I was not disappointed.
 
I've been very lucky with my premiums - I bought the LS145s from Japan when the GBP was still 2:1 vs the USD and brand new including all shipping and customs charges it cost me just ?770 - new in the UK today the same guitar woulkd cost me ?1300

My LC180s was second hand and I bought it over from Japan when the GBP was weak but got a good deal on it and paid ?880 including all shipping and customs charges - new today the same guitar would cost ?1400

Both are wonderful guitars and have that little something that you can't quite put your finger on which we call mojo or 'je ne sais quoi'...would I recommend them - yes, every time, would I buy them at today's prices....maybe....but probably not in the cuurent economic climate....

On the other hand my LS75Q (another good deal at ?400 NOS) is just a fantastic guitar and feels absolutely right in my hands at half the price of the premiums. It's colour is not to everyone's taste but this is a guitar that just feels so right in my hands that I would never ever part with it. The features you pay for on the premium models are those subtle things you appreciate over time, but even on the lower end MIJ vintage series you are getting a quality instrument which will be as good as you ever need it to be.

So I agree with Singemonkey about diminishing returns but you pay youir money and make your choice...but whatever you choose you will be getting a great guitar.....

Anyway, here's my premiums...

updatemarch2010019.jpg


And here's my funny foam green LS75Q which I love and will never get rid of...
MyGuitars003.jpg
 
crimsonfire said:
Diamond said:
I could write 10 pages of experiences I've had playing Tokais side by side with Gibsons and Fenders.
How about just today, playing Tokai TTE50 Teles up against the new Fender "Select" Tele models.
It's a joke, the "Selects" are about 3 times the price, it was a stalemate, there is no difference, the only difference we found is that the TTE50s were more mellow, warmer sounding.
No difference in quality, no difference in feel and playability...the price difference is the name on the headstock.
I wont mention the 'paper' shim we found in the neck joint of one of the "Selects".

I got 120 guitars from Tokai in one order.
I didn't find a flaw/defect on any one of them.
Every one had the potential to be setup perfectly...my guitar tech never spends more than 10 minutes setting up a Tokai...sometimes just 5 minutes.
In fact, I know of dozens of guitarists who have bought Tokais from music stores and never had them setup, they've gigged with them for years using the factory setup.

Try checking out 120 Gibsons...good luck, they'll keep a guitar tech busy for 6 months.
Just checking out a dozen or so in one store I've seen flaws ranging from uneven frets, badly cut nuts, nuts cut too low, file marks on the neck binding, rough fretboards, body binding not flush with the body, crooked tuner, areas not polished properly, filler visible around the neck joint, neck carve not rounded/finished properly...etc, etc.
All this on guitars that have hollowed out bodies and a low quality neck joint...2 invisible flaws right there.

Lets put it this way.
If Gibson contracted Tokai to make their Gibsons (like Fender did), you'd be reading on the internet about how Gibson quality has suddenly drastically improved.

Have you ever read a review of a MIJ Tokai that said the guitar didn't sound good?

Diamond, you're a dealer right? Give it to me straight, no bs sales pitch or anything like that, how does the premium series lc200 compare to the vintage series lc107 when it comes to sound?

There's like a $1000 difference in price there. Is all of that just for the bling (1 piece vs 2 piece body and etc) or does that money actually translate into the lc200 having better sounds? That's all I really care about. They both have the same pickups right? If they both sound the same then I'll take the lc107. Like I said, no bs, give it to me straight between these two guitars.

Another thing, you probably don't have either of these guitars in stock for a lefty, but could you get me one? Also, If I choose the lc107, can you get me one with ebony fingerboard instead of the rosewood that comes with it? If you can get the guitars, PM me with the price and details.

I haven't tried an LC200.
But I can tell you the LC98 all mahogany wine red custom sounds fantastic.

You'll be better off ordering one from a dealer/distributor in your country.
I try avoid ordering one off custom made guitars.
 
I can only contribute to the "consistency" argument against Gibson. When I decided to buy a LP guitar, initially I dealt with a UK shop where I had done business before for Fender guitars. Initially went with a Gibson LP Studio. Returned due to defect. The decided to upgrade to a Gibson LP Standard, 2010 edition. Returned due to defect. Another Gibson LP Standard came. Returned, due to defect. I gave up and learned my lesson: never buy a Gibson sight unseen (or from that dealer, but that's not relevant). I wanted a good LP and didn't have the possibility to try a bunch in a shop. After that I went with Tokai. Bought a LS1-R8, and it's a great LP, as I expected. I will buy Tokai sight unseen again in the future. When possible, they'll have my business for a Tele and ES type guitars. Or maybe the Tele I'll buy Fender Japan :p
 
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