Weird Neck Joint on Burny LP Custom

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le juge said:
I'm also sure that Burny is a Matsumoku made. My Aria Pro II Leopard have exactly the same kind of tenon and routing like guitars Matsumoku have made for Aria Pro II.
This is not the first one I have seen. I have seen another RLC60 with the normal diamond in Black colour sold on ebay.
Matsumoku made some 3 pieces neck for Aria Pro II Les Paul models, especially for the custom model.

And last, but not the least, the inlays of this Burny are getting old like the Matsumoku Aria Pro II LP inlays...
Click to expand...

That's a great post le juge!
And interesting too because your guitar is different from other Aria's I have seen, look;

AriaProIILS4501978.jpg


AriaProII1.jpg


AriaProII2.jpg


All of them have a different pup cavity form, left drilled wiring, 2 screws in the tenon joint and a hole in the tenon at the truss rod. One of them is a LS450 from 1978.
So either Matsumoku changed their pup cavity form & drilling route and changed to 1 screw in the late 70s/early 80s OR Aria used different plants for making these guitars. I know for a fact Aria used 3 plants.

If this is a 3 piece neck which I can't make out for sure with these pics then it's a sure indicator that it was Matsumoku made (sorry, 3pupLPC didn't know what you meant earlier). So maybe TheNewSteveH can tell us?

Le juge; what do you mean with the inlays getting old; do they age in a different way?
 
No worries :) I'm callin' 3 piece maple neck... which makes it the first I have ever seen on a Burny. I think it is a Matso RLC, as it also has the smaller (and more) split diamond inlay.
 
jacco said:
le juge said:
I'm also sure that Burny is a Matsumoku made. My Aria Pro II Leopard have exactly the same kind of tenon and routing like guitars Matsumoku have made for Aria Pro II.
This is not the first one I have seen. I have seen another RLC60 with the normal diamond in Black colour sold on ebay.
Matsumoku made some 3 pieces neck for Aria Pro II Les Paul models, especially for the custom model.

And last, but not the least, the inlays of this Burny are getting old like the Matsumoku Aria Pro II LP inlays...
Click to expand...

That's a great post le juge!
And interesting too because your guitar is different from other Aria's I have seen, look;

All of them have a different pup cavity form, left drilled wiring, 2 screws in the tenon joint and a hole in the tenon at the truss rod. One of them is a LS450 from 1978.
So either Matsumoku changed their pup cavity form & drilling route and changed to 1 screw in the late 70s/early 80s OR Aria used different plants for making these guitars. I know for a fact Aria used 3 plants.

If this is a 3 piece neck which I can't make out for sure with these pics then it's a sure indicator that it was Matsumoku made (sorry, 3pupLPC didn't know what you meant earlier). So maybe TheNewSteveH can tell us?

Le juge; what do you mean with the inlays getting old; do they age in a different way?
Click to expand...

Yes, inlays from many Aria Pro II LP get a purple color when they are getting old.

The 3 guitars you have shown are typically some 70's Aria Pro II LP low end model, all with a top which is not solid maple top (but a king of "caved top with a veener top"). The 2 screws tenon is current on these 70's model (like 3 pieces neck).

In late 70's and early 80's, Matsumoku make some changes in the tenon (1 screw and different routing for PU) and the neck (one piece with a little piece of wood added in the junction with the body) and sometimes 3 pieces neck (the transition might in 1980, no more volute).

You can have a look on this one, a 1980 model (LS600D according to the 1980 and the 1981 catalogues) but the routing is the old one and the tenon a "one screw" one. Also a 3 pieces neck.
Mine is also a LS600D model (according to the 1981 catalogue), but from 1981 and they change the routing and the neck (one piece with a piece of wood added). Both are Matsumoku guitars for sure.
http://imageevent.com/chingo123/july2010/ariaproiils500lpssb5323

The same case on this custom model from 1980
http://imageevent.com/chingo123/june2010/ariaproiilc6003pucrsb5230

Aria Pro II LP copies were stopped in 1981, but I think that Matsumoku could easily made some copies for other brands.
I've never seen an Aria Pro II LP copie with a 1982 serial number.
Aria Pro II continues with LS/PE models (made by matsumoku and with the same kind of tenon).

Also, I don't know why some models where called "Leopard" (probably for the domestic market ?) in the late 70's and early 80's.
 
le juge said:
jacco said:
le juge said:
I'm also sure that Burny is a Matsumoku made. My Aria Pro II Leopard have exactly the same kind of tenon and routing like guitars Matsumoku have made for Aria Pro II.
This is not the first one I have seen. I have seen another RLC60 with the normal diamond in Black colour sold on ebay.
Matsumoku made some 3 pieces neck for Aria Pro II Les Paul models, especially for the custom model.

And last, but not the least, the inlays of this Burny are getting old like the Matsumoku Aria Pro II LP inlays...
Click to expand...

That's a great post le juge!
And interesting too because your guitar is different from other Aria's I have seen, look;

All of them have a different pup cavity form, left drilled wiring, 2 screws in the tenon joint and a hole in the tenon at the truss rod. One of them is a LS450 from 1978.
So either Matsumoku changed their pup cavity form & drilling route and changed to 1 screw in the late 70s/early 80s OR Aria used different plants for making these guitars. I know for a fact Aria used 3 plants.

If this is a 3 piece neck which I can't make out for sure with these pics then it's a sure indicator that it was Matsumoku made (sorry, 3pupLPC didn't know what you meant earlier). So maybe TheNewSteveH can tell us?

Le juge; what do you mean with the inlays getting old; do they age in a different way?
Click to expand...

Yes, inlays from many Aria Pro II LP get a purple color when they are getting old.

The 3 guitars you have shown are typically some 70's Aria Pro II LP low end model, all with a top which is not solid maple top (but a king of "caved top with a veener top"). The 2 screws tenon is current on these 70's model (like 3 pieces neck).

In late 70's and early 80's, Matsumoku make some changes in the tenon (1 screw and different routing for PU) and the neck (one piece with a little piece of wood added in the junction with the body) and sometimes 3 pieces neck (the transition might in 1980, no more volute).

You can have a look on this one, a 1980 model (LS600D according to the 1980 and the 1981 catalogues) but the routing is the old one and the tenon a "one screw" one. Also a 3 pieces neck.
Mine is also a LS600D model (according to the 1981 catalogue), but from 1981 and they change the routing and the neck (one piece with a piece of wood added). Both are Matsumoku guitars for sure.
http://imageevent.com/chingo123/july2010/ariaproiils500lpssb5323

The same case on this custom model from 1980
http://imageevent.com/chingo123/june2010/ariaproiilc6003pucrsb5230

Aria Pro II LP copies were stopped in 1981, but I think that Matsumoku could easily made some copies for other brands.
I've never seen an Aria Pro II LP copie with a 1982 serial number.
Aria Pro II continues with LS/PE models (made by matsumoku and with the same kind of tenon).

Also, I don't know why some models where called "Leopard" (probably for the domestic market ?) in the late 70's and early 80's.
Click to expand...

Yes, I saw those pictures, I guess we use the same source for watching routings :D
These are transitional because they feature both old and new; the pup cavity form is old but have the new right drilling, 1 screw tenon and no hole in the tenon at the truss rod.
Interesting!
 
3pupLPC said:
No worries :) I'm callin' 3 piece maple neck... which makes it the first I have ever seen on a Burny. I think it is a Matso RLC, as it also has the smaller (and more) split diamond inlay.
Click to expand...

I find this diamond quite large. Can you post pics where I can see both diamonds at the same time to compare?
 
My Aria LS800 that I used to have had only 1 screw in the tenon as well, not two. Just looks like Burny sublet out some of their work to the Mat's plant is all
 
jacco said:
3pupLPC said:
I will have to dig through some emails to find it, but I will post it when I do.
Click to expand...

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I guess I deleted the email from another MIJ fan who had sent me a picture of his Matso and Fuji CUstomers side-by-side where the diamond size difference was obvious..... but here is a picture of my RLC-65, which I consider to be a larger, or "scale" size inlay. Compare to the OP ebay listing picture. Notice where the points fall in comparison to the tuners.

IMG_1555.jpg
 
I JUST scooped this one up this morn, could not resist the color and it being a custom. Should be interesting to see what it is. I would guess late 70's or 80...hard to tell if the neck is a 3 piece or not but might be. We will see I suppose. They are killer guitars and cheaper due to not getting the publicity that Greco etc have gotten but I suspect they will.

hirokomakuto-img600x450-1282439672ramiuc12952.jpg

hirokomakuto-img600x450-1282439671yfqfp712952.jpg

hirokomakuto-img600x450-1282439672tyvidc12952.jpg
 
I thought I'd come back to this thread and point out that this has turned out to be a very sweet guitar. I put a Bigsby and a Vibramate on it. The pickups are wonderful for blues, and the neck is very nice.

It weighs a ton, but I got an excellent Levy's strap that's 3" wide, so no problem. One thing that's interesting: it won't fit in an SKB case now that the Bigsby is on it. You can force it, but I am told the guitar is thicker than a Gibson, so it doesn't really work. Doesn't matter which way the Bigsby is pointing.

I would buy another one of these in a heartbeat, but because I got such a good result with Matsumoku, I would want to be sure I didn't get a regular non-Matsumoku Burny. I keep an eye on Ebay Arias from this time period.
 
I have a RLC65 from 84/85.. The one with 3 pickups. It has the same tenon as the TheNewSteveH's guitar. Very nice guitar, and has a slightly thicker body than my LP standard.
 
Matsumoku made some great guitars and unfortunately went out of business around 1987.

Matsumoku were using bolts to secure the neck body join with more strength and Fujigen were using dowels in a similar way.

Don't get hung up on tenons.
Basically a tenon just joins the neck and body and all this stuff about long tenons and sustain are all basically selling features used by sellers to promote their item so someone will buy it because the original 50s Gibsons did have a long tenon and Gibson went to a medium tenon in the 70s and if someone can prove that a 50s Gibson has more sustain then a 70s Gibson then I'd like to see it.

According to the long tenon sustain theory, a Strat with a large shim in the neck pocket should have the sustain of a Banjo.

I've got a Strat with a large shim in the neck pocket that has a Duncan JB in it and it sustains as much as any long tenon guitar I've played and I can't pickup any difference between all of the different tenon guitars I've played.
The pickup itself is like 500% more important than the tenon for tone and sustain.

The Fernandes/Burny/Matsumoku link is mentioned in this article http://www.daeschler.com/articles/fujigen/

"One of the local dealers in Hiroshima occasionally send his employees to a training course to Matsumoku, the manufacturer or Aria, Westone and a part of the Fernandes-programme."
 
Hey turns out, you're right about the Dyna Gakki connection. Here's a quote from a guy a MLKP forum that live sin Japan and talked to a former Dyba Gakki employee that now works in a guitars tore:

?I chatted with the guy tonight and it turns out he worked for..........DYNA GAKKI......... from 1990-92. He couldn't tell me anything about when they were made at Fujigen, but he could tell me that Dyna Gakki made Burny's whilst he was there!!!
He also mentioned that Dyna Gakki was part of the Fujigen group and that they stopped producing Greco's just after he arrived.?

So some blank spots can be filled in now!

Also interesting that Dyna was making Greco's int he last 80s!!
 
Looks like Dyna Gakki was making the early 90s Burnys but the Greco LPs from around 1990 just don't look like Dyna Gakki, they look like Fujigen (compare the Fujigen Orville control cavity).

This 1990 Greco has a bolt neck and a YXXXX serial number.

The YXXXX serial number has sometimes been suggested that it is from Dyna Gakki but from what I've seen from the routing, the MYYXXXX and the YXXXX Greco serial number formats are both made by Fujigen.

Dyna Gakki might have made some other Greco models like maybe the Greco GO or other models (Dyna Gakki made the Ibanez Blazers and Fujigen made other Ibanez models) and maybe there are some Dyna Gakki Greco LP's but I havn't seen any so far.

early 1990s Burny (Dyna Gakki?)

bur.jpg


Fujigen 1993 Orville

satume-img400x600-1218806054ieebvz242.jpg


1990 Greco YXXXX serial number format

greco-lpcw21.jpg


greco-lpcw17.jpg


greco-lpcw19.jpg


greco-lpcw16.jpg


A 1988 MYYXXXX serial format Greco, same routing as the 1990 YXXXX serial format Greco above and the 1993 Fujigen Orville.
The MYYXXXX serial format was also used on the Fujigen made Ibanez's.

4c89_3JPG.jpg


9ab6_3JPG.jpg


4419_3JPG.jpg


4207_3JPG.jpg
 

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