tokai is getting just a bit ridiculous

Tokai Forum

Help Support Tokai Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Ok here goes, Love Rock first
LRbackofheadstock.jpg

LRbody.jpg

LRcontrols.jpg

LRheadstock.jpg
 
It says Made in Korea, underneath it has a serial number starting with a J
 
vikingblues said:
I don't see much "Gibson bashing" on the early models which did create that style of guitar - quite the reverse. Much sought after guitars - with good reason.

Most of the people that have played bursts are dead, or they are collectors with vaults. There were only about 1800 made, forget them, there is nothing comparable in the new goods market.

vikingblues said:
When I see top professional musicians advising the need to try 10 or 20 Les Pauls to get a good...

I just don't believe this - there will be some truth in it, but more exaggeration I think. If you personally have tried 20 to find one that was any good then fine, otherwise it's hearsay.

vikingblues said:
I'm not anti-Gibson - I've had a Gibson Standard (sold in bad times) that was very very good and was my first real quality guitar, but it was no better than the Tokai LC85 or LS equivalent and its a hell of a price differential.

Well it's been said on this forum many times, that the LS-95 is the best value LP in the world, and to be honest with Gibby's new construction methods (chambering and weight relieving) Tokai are going to kill them. I've never tried an LS myself, but I'll say it again, all my Gibbys were good with no problems, including my 77 Deluxe which, although heavy, was very well made. I guess I've just been lucky, but I am not alone.

vikingblues said:
To go down the Historic route to get a better tone the price differential gets really silly.

Just the law of diminishing returns, same deal with the high end models from any maker, small production runs are going to be expensive. Worth it? Er, no! And always buy second hand - to my surprise I actually made money on my Historic.

vikingblues said:
I also tried Gibsons at the same sort of price level as the LC85 - moving into the realms of Specials, Fadeds etc and the tone was far below the Gibson Standard model and the quality of finish and fittings on one in particular was on a par with something knocked together on a kitchen table with old radio parts - very disappointing as I had thought I would one day get another Gibson. This disappointment was a major factor in my looking at Tokais in the first place. If this post sounds anti-Gibson it is probably because of that disappointment.

Fadeds got pretty good reviews? The kitchen table analogy - all just exaggeration, and a typical response for a Gibson hater? You said yourself that your own Standard was good? I'm not bothered by finish imperfections unless they are really bad, but that's just me.

vikingblues said:
Why should people who haven't tried a guitar built by a supposedly high quality manufacturer be likely to get a "crap" guitar? I would hope a quality luthier would only make and sell good quality guitars! There is no excuse for a guitar costing thousands to be poor quality.

They're not crap, that's the point. However, it's certainly possible to buy a guitar or two from any manufacturer and get a dog, it may play and look all right but sounds poor. They do happen, and it's not a QC issue when you're talking about the high volume production level.

It's pretty well accepted that the factory set-ups on Gibbys were not that great, but not because they were doing them particularly badly. They were set-up to allow the use of smaller strings without having to replace the nut and saddles. Call it a fad or trend but there's this idea that you should set up a guitar the way you like it, Gibson capitalised on that idea and released their product with rough set-ups expecting the dealers to make them nice. This was fine until dealers got squeezed, and now many Gibsons get sold not playing as good as they could. But this is easy fixed.

The bottom line is that Gibson is a corporation that now exists only to make money, the corporation has a monopoly on its brand which is very strong. They are maybe on the way down now, because Gibson USA needs only to be better than Epiphone which they are, and the Historics just need to be better than Gibson USA, and they are a lot better. Any company that tries to produce the volume that Gibson produces will end up around the same quality level. Fender are similar, but I think they have slightly better fret work. That's modern life.

Enjoy getting Tokais for the current prices, because if there's any underlying fairness to a free market system then Tokai should be charging players a lot more and making a lot more money!

I think we've got to agree to disagree.

:)
 
leadguitar_323 said:
I have perfect pitch, as i developed my ear it became even more obvious as too the short comings of these guitars. I suppose when the mighty dollar takes a back seat to pride and producing a great product then maybe the consistency will get better.

This is the biggie for me with Gibson - fret fall away, and yes, totally due to a money making mentality. Bacchus, Tokai, Edwards, Fender - all have better fret positioning than most Gibsons, and sound sweeter. It's a small thing but very important once you can hear it.

leadguitar_323 said:
This still amazes me and it surprised Oze as well, my point, it cost me under 400 Aussie dollars shipped and eats gibbo's for breakfast. The combined cost of my 2 custom Tokai's was under 2 grand and they are both ALL Honduras mahogany.

Today's values please or else it doesn't offer a meaningful comparison to new prices. Also, good light mahogany is almost extinct now, and we will soon look back on the 90's as (maybe) another golden age!

I still think Gibson aren't as crap as people say they are. :)
 
Today's values please or else it doesn't offer a meaningful comparison to new prices.

These are current prices and i actually paid less than 2 grand, having good contacts help. One is a 2003 model and the other is a 2002 and i have bought both around 2 years ago, so not a great difference in price, same with the Greco, its a RR-65 with dry 1982 pickups and it was under aus $400 shipped, it has some "character" but it plays and sounds awesome. My last word on this is that if i thought the Gibbo's were better guitars and better value i would have 5 of them, i have none....

Mick
 
JVsearch said:
Most of the people that have played bursts are dead, or they are collectors with vaults. There were only about 1800 made, forget them, there is nothing comparable in the new goods market.
Gibson made some great guitars a long time ago - so now we have to forget about them? Makes sense - they obviously can't be expected to keep up the quality! I think Gibson did manage to produce many more good quality guitars than the 1800 you refer to, and we ought to be able to use those produced when Gibson had a good reputation for quality as a benchmark.

JVsearch said:
vikingblues said:
When I see top professional musicians advising the need to try 10 or 20 Les Pauls to get a good...
I just don't believe this - there will be some truth in it, but more exaggeration I think. If you personally have tried 20 to find one that was any good then fine, otherwise it's hearsay.
I'm afraid that's what some people have said. I am not going to waste my time, money and effort trying 20 guitars to find a good one when the cost of what is being sold screams at me that the quality should be good. I had a good go at trying some but I'm not willing to go past half a dozen or so as I think the manufacturers and shops have a duty of care to sell product of a quality equating to the price.

vikingblues said:
I also tried Gibsons at the same sort of price level as the LC85 - moving into the realms of Specials, Fadeds etc and the tone was far below the Gibson Standard model and the quality of finish and fittings on one in particular was on a par with something knocked together on a kitchen table with old radio parts - very disappointing as I had thought I would one day get another Gibson. This disappointment was a major factor in my looking at Tokais in the first place. If this post sounds anti-Gibson it is probably because of that disappointment.

JVsearch said:
Fadeds got pretty good reviews? The kitchen table analogy - all just exaggeration, and a typical response for a Gibson hater? You said yourself that your own Standard was good? I'm not bothered by finish imperfections unless they are really bad, but that's just me.
So now I'm a liar - thanks friend. My personal experience is EXACTLY as stated. Very disappointed - I loved the Gibson that I had and I was gutted at having to get rid of it - sorry, but I am NOT a Gibson hater - it would have been such an easier task to find a guitar if I was - why try all these Gibsons if I hate them?. OK, agreed about imperfections not being important, but that one I mentioned was worse than imperfections - the kitchen table was NOT an exageration - I couldn't believe it was a Gibson when it was put into my hands to try. (I have built several guitars myself so I know what crappy build is first hand - I would have been ashamed to sell one of my self builds in that state).
As far as reviews goes apart from getting a general impression I'm not much interested - it's how the guitar sounds and feels to you as an individual that matters. In this case my ears wanted to be elsewhere and not listening to the guitars I was playing - total contrast to the gibson I used to have when I could enjoy just hearing one note from it.

JVsearch said:
However, it's certainly possible to buy a guitar or two from any manufacturer and get a dog, it may play and look all right but sounds poor. They do happen, and it's not a QC issue when you're talking about the high volume production level.
Sorry I can't accept that. If high volume production equals poor QC and bad product being sold then we're in deep s**t with the food manufacturers. I work in food manufacture and the bigger we have got the more important QC has become and the less we have been able to risk bad product.

JVsearch said:
Call it a fad or trend but there's this idea that you should set up a guitar the way you like it, Gibson capitalised on that idea and released their product with rough set-ups expecting the dealers to make them nice. This was fine until dealers got squeezed, and now many Gibsons get sold not playing as good as they could. But this is easy fixed.
So dealers don't do their job. Has anyone at Gibson considered that maybe they need to amend how goods leave the factory so as not to put off prospective customers? I agree that we should all be able to do set up jobs on guitars - I see more evidence that this is happening but there are still far too many posts on guitar forums from people that do not feel able / confident to do this and from people who advise for every problem to use a guitar tech. I'm happy to tweak the set up and do this whenever I get a new guitar but I think the set up in the shop should be pretty near right already. One of my major local guitar shops refuses to give out Allen Keys as they claim their guitar tech has "seen too many disasters". They're more than happy to take more money from you for their guitar tech to do a set up though. Not a game I'll play with them.

JVsearch said:
The bottom line is that Gibson is a corporation that now exists only to make money, the corporation has a monopoly on its brand which is very strong. They are maybe on the way down now, because Gibson USA needs only to be better than Epiphone which they are, and the Historics just need to be better than Gibson USA, and they are a lot better. Any company that tries to produce the volume that Gibson produces will end up around the same quality level. Fender are similar, but I think they have slightly better fret work. That's modern life.

Enjoy getting Tokais for the current prices, because if there's any underlying fairness to a free market system then Tokai should be charging players a lot more and making a lot more money!

I think we've got to agree to disagree.

:)
I can agree to disagree on this. This is why I feel I have to shop around with the less well known brands.

I'm just disappointed and jaundiced by it all. That's why I sound so angry. :)
 
Hi JV, listen mate there's no need to label anyone because they had a bad experience with Gibson, if i wanted to i could get you plenty of info on poorly built Gibson LP's. Actually there is a story on this forum somewhere that was written by a Gibson rep and it was all about how hard it was to pick a good guitar from the ones he was selling for Gibson. Out of a whole stock list he had delivered to a shop there was only One guitar that he said he would own and it was a junior, none of the standards were any good at all, also i bet they all sold to guys that thought they were awesome as well, doesn't mean they were. And what about the rocker neck joints Gibson used on its guitars for years, some SG's didn't even fit properly in their cases because of bad neck angle. I don't "hate" Gibson at all and i doubt Viking blues does either, all we want is great guitars that don't cost an arm and a leg. I have handled piles of MIJ LP's and so have a lot of guys on this site and i have never played one before i bought it and i have never had a dud.....I wouldn't risk this on Gibbo's simply because of their quality control, sure they are finished well, most of the time but i want players and mine are all keepers..
Don't get so defensive its a well known fact that Gibson produced some shocking guitars all in the name of profit, thats a fact and they still produce lemons, throw in the cost of these guitars and i just can't justify them at all.

Mick
 
Thanks Mick. Yes, I don't hate Gibsons - I was really happy with the one I use to have and I thought I could find that happiness again.

Your post was much better argued and briefer than mine. Too much steam coming out of my ears. :oops:
 
I was wrong, Gibson are rubbish, and have been since about 1968.

Ever heard the notion where someone who gets a bad product tells 10 people about it, but those who get a good one don't say a lot? What happens when those 10 people tell a bunch of others and they disseminate it further based only on what they were told, without personal experience? Facts based on hearsay spreading like wildfire across the internet. It's at least possible that things aren't as bad with Gibson guitars as many say?

But I give in, I'm wrong. And I will admit that there have been some stuff ups from Gibby, and I've seen the photos to prove it, but those people were nearly all given a replacement guitar under warranty. From what I've absorbed on TGP and the LPF, it's not as bad as some make out.

BTW, I didn't call anyone a liar, there were question marks at the end of those 3 sentences, I wanted clarification. My own experience (played many and owned 6) has been so far removed from what has been described by Mick, Viking and others that I just feel it is necessary to put forth a view on the internet that is not "you have to play 20 to get a good one".

The food manufacturer analogy could be better compared with the guitar "dog" scenario by accepting that we can make large quantities of processed food that is safe but doesn't have much taste or nutritional value.

Anyway, I'm fine with being wrong, and being a mean spirited twat or whatever you want to think of me. I can say that, because I actually am quite mean spirited!

In the end we've had different experiences with Gibsons.
 
My LS-320 compares to any good Historic no dubt,I?m really so pleased with it it?s really difficult finding any guitar to repalce it,it?s very special with a great feel and an even sounding with strong bass.I have played some good Tokais but no one compares to this.I guess who the inside builder was?
 
So, just out of interest are both my Tokais Fakais? (pictures posted earlier) My apologies for starting a mini WW3 bye the way !!
 
JVsearch said:
Anyway, I'm fine with being wrong, and being a mean spirited twat or whatever you want to think of me. I can say that, because I actually am quite mean spirited!

In the end we've had different experiences with Gibsons.

I'm afraid I'm just old, disillusioned, and bitter - you wouldn't think it from my posts would you! :)

And yes you're right - different experiences.

It would be really dull if everyone thought the same like those in power would prefer.

And vaporboy, my apologies for my part in hijacking the thread. Not to mention my contribution to the WW3 hostilities. :oops:
 
Just out of interest..There was dealer use to do *Korean Tokais*. They looked the bomb and had Mahogany bodies etc etc..Did a really bright Orange one and a Wine Red one. Where these the Fakaas everyone refers to?
 
I wonder if anyone really knows, it seems there are Tokai's from all over (at least it seems that way to me, as a layman). For example - the 2 guitars I posted pics of earlier haven't been categorically labelled as 'Fakais' by the experts as yet - I suspect they are? Hence my rant at the beginning of the thread which was a bit strong reading back to be honest, must have been having a bad day.
 
vikingblues said:
And vaporboy, my apologies for my part in hijacking the thread. Not to mention my contribution to the WW3 hostilities. :oops:

Thanks for adding this. I've looked back over the thread, and it was mostly my fault. :oops:
 
JVsearch said:
vikingblues said:
And vaporboy, my apologies for my part in hijacking the thread. Not to mention my contribution to the WW3 hostilities. :oops:

Thanks for adding this. I've looked back over the thread, and it was mostly my fault. :oops:

Can't you just feel the love here, folks? Now, what's the topic? :wink:
 
:D and have a break.......when is your bike be completed mickman?

3296703656_c391335dfd_o.jpg


:wink: she is Norika Fujiwara. Japan's no.1 actress/model/more.......j
 
Back
Top