ST 100 '83 Goldstar

Music stores and pawn shops where Tokai guitars have been spotted for sale. New or used.

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CrusHtone
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Hi all

Post by CrusHtone » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:20 am

Hi all,

I am the seller. I am sorry for my lack of participation here. Actually, I received several disturbing (to me) responses to my description. I have been in a quandary as to what to do.

I will tell you all my complete history with this guitar.

First, I searched for my records of who and when I bought this guitar from, and as of now I am unable to find them. I do know this, I bought this guitar from either Hisashi, Bluesyguitars, japanoldguitars, or possibly MIJguitars, as I have bought several from those sellers, and the only Tokais that I have bought from other sellers have been single purchases, and I remember those. I really believe it was Hisashi. It was sold to me as a model 100. Koizumi wrote to my auction an told me it is not a 100. And now I see the experts here agree.

About the circa 1983. You did write to tell me this. But I stand by this fact even though the registry says it is 1984. There is documentation of this Logo being bought new in 1983. I am not saying it is 1983, that is why I used the term circa. Never the less, that part is no big deal, and I would have changed it immediately, but there were already bids, and it is not possible to change the description at that point.

I was also told from the person I bought it from that it was all original. I know this because it is a question I always ask, and it is important to me. The metal scratch plate was a cool feature to me as I have had some original Fender guitars with the exact same thing. Also, I know that you could have bought this exact configuration from Fender in 1959. This was the first year that fender offered the 3 tone burst and it was near the end of the metal plate being available. The only thing that bothered me when I got the guitar was the neck plate serial was only 4 digits, which would not be period correct. Four digits would be earlier. Everything else would be right on.

I had no idea there would arise so much controversy about this guitar when I listed it. I suppose I will pull it and just keep it. I really do like it. Actually when I first got it, my son in law saw it and freaked over it. So I gave it to him, but he plays humbuckers and never could fall in love with the single coil sound. Then I found a 1958 style Tokai Flying Vee with the humbuckers he loves and he gave me back this for the Vee. Well, then when I was detailing this guitar for this auction, I realized what a really sweet guitar this is and just about had myself talked in to not selling it anyway. Truth is, I have to sell something, I have almost 70 guitars and over 30 amps.

I just want everyone to know that I am not trying to mislead anyone, and I put the link to this forum on my auction so that interested folks could ask questions of the experts here. If anyone of you has any advice as to what course of action I should take in regards to this auction please feel free to voice your opinion.

With a humble desire to be a respected member of this community, Kind regards,
Richard

bluejeannot
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Post by bluejeannot » Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:01 am

Dear Richard, thank you for your reply, I am sure everybody here appreciates your candour,especially in the light of the recent controversy that has been raging here over another guitar, the details of which I am sure you are aware.It seems to me that you have to pull the guitar from the E Bay auction, as you leave yourself open to a claim of misrepresention of goods from the potential buyer.At the moment this guitar seems like something of a bitsocaster which of course is no bad thing as long as the buyer is aware of exactly what they they are buying.The other thing you must do is take the neck off and establish if the body and neck stamps match.Once you have established just what this guitar is comprised of then readvertise it on E Bay as exactly what it is if it has adifferent neck and body then say so clearly.Alternatively you could advertise the guitar here on the forum , maybe some members would be interested in this guitar at the right price, I certainly would be tempted. If opther members disagree I am sure they will make their views known to you,but in my view this is the only way to go,Yours with respect, Gabe.
bluejeannot

bunbury
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Post by bunbury » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:09 am

bluejeannot wrote:At the moment this guitar seems like something of a bitsocaster which of course is no bad thing as long as the buyer is aware of exactly what they they are buying.
It could be a very good Goldstar with a changed scratch plate. Could be all that Richard needs to do is remove the words ST-100. I'll let someone else make that call.

It's not often I buy something old or vintage on e-bay and know 'exactly' what I'm buying before it arrives. Even after delivery there can be doubt. It's part of the fun - will I get a bargain or will I have made a mistake? :wink:

bluejeannot
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Post by bluejeannot » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:59 am

It could be a very good Goldstar with a changed scratch plate. Could be all that Richard needs to do is remove the words ST-100. I'll let someone else make that call.

It's not often I buy something old or vintage on e-bay and know 'exactly' what I'm buying before it arrives. Even after delivery there can be doubt. It's part of the fun - will I get a bargain or will I have made a mistake? :wink:[/quote] Haven`t we been down this road before? I don`t think "it`s part of the fun", to lose several hundred pounds,dollars, or any other currency for that matter in resale value, and I can think of better ways of enjoying myself,can`t you? Gabe.
bluejeannot

bunbury
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Post by bunbury » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:24 am

bluejeannot wrote: Haven`t we been down this road before? I don`t think "it`s part of the fun", to lose several hundred pounds,dollars, or any other currency for that matter in resale value, and I can think of better ways of enjoying myself,can`t you? Gabe.
Did I say that? I'm confused .... why would I say that? I'm very sorry if I've upset you. I think I'll stay out of this thread.

cheshirecatsmile
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Post by cheshirecatsmile » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:36 am

First I'd like to applaud Richard for coming on here and trying to answer critics of his guitar. I always feel a bit guilty coming on here--it's like talking about someone else behind their backs!
ST100 Gold Stars doesn't exist and were never ever available.
Be aware!
I don't want to disagree with an expert like togps, but there are a couple of things about this guitar that seem like they could be correct, or close to correct. First, for sure there was a TST-80 Goldstar --there is a photo of a TST-80BB (black) with a 4 digit serial number, with Final Prospec saddles in a book/magazine called Young Guitar Japan Vintage vol.2 (pg16). With 1982 Springys only the higher end (ST-80 and up) models that are 1954 copies have 4 digit serials (at least according to Japan Vintage). My Japanese is really weak, but in the same publication, page 33 there is a reference to a TST-100! There are too many kanji for me to be able to read this, but if I can figure out how to post a scan I will try to put it up here--maybe someone else can translate!

The metal scratchplate is the thing that gets me. There is a PB-80 (1982 catalogue) that is the top-of-the-line Hardpuncher bass with a perfect match to the scratchplate on this Goldstar. They're goddawful ugly IMO but it's exactly the kind of custom thing this company would have done perhaps on a custom order? I've seen some earlier Fender guitars with this--I guess it's good for shielding pickups........

I own what I think is probably a fairly early 2 tone Sunburst Goldstar with a 2-piece alder body, what I believe to be Nitro finish and "U"stamped pickups and C profile maple neck (there was an identical Goldstar posted on the forum last spring? and I think the consensus was it was probably TST-50 or 60). Later Goldstars had "VI" stamped pickups if I'm not mistaken. If Richard's guitar is genuine, and were a transitional model (late '83-early'84), the "E" pickups would put this above my guitar. If it had a "V" profile neck, (nitro finish, E pickups 1 piece body??) I guess my line of thinking is that if all those factors are in place, even if this isn't a TST-100, (there is a slight chance in my mind that it could be....) it would be a TST-80.

Perhaps before we all jump on Richard and tell him to pull his auction we should ask him for some more photos? For one thing, I'd really like to know how many pieces the body is. If there were some photos of underneath the scratch plate where the finish is yellow it might be easier to tell how many pieces it is. The 3-tone sunburst, makes it really hard to see if there are any seams in the body. If it's one piece, that's a really promising sign this could be correct--if it's a 3-piece that's a deal-breaker. IMO that's a really dodgy looking headstock logo--I know these sometimes age badly but it looks a bit fake from the photos on the auction. If you can take a photo from a different angle that would show any wear on the logo that might help. Richard--if you're brave enough to pull the neck off that should be good proof that it's at least a Tokai neck--there are fairly distinctive stamps on the end of a Tokai neck. It's really not that hard to take a neck off (or even put it back on!)--someone recently posted good instructions on how to do it. Can we see some photos of the bridge assembly from the back, and perhaps some more of the pickup cavities? Also, details like the stamps on the back of the tuners (Deluxe, Tokai?). Profile of the neck (C, V, U?), with photos? I know it's a lot to ask, but it looks like there are some sceptics here....I'd love to see you prove them wrong! :oops: :D
________
Yamaha pc-50 specifications
Last edited by cheshirecatsmile on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bluejeannot
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Post by bluejeannot » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:44 am

You`re forgiven, go and lie down for an hour or so. Gabe.
bluejeannot

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Post by bluejeannot » Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:57 am

cheshirecatsmile wrote:First I'd like to applaud Richard for coming on here and trying to answer critics of his guitar. I always feel a bit guilty coming on here--it's like talking about someone else behind their backs!
ST100 Gold Stars doesn't exist and were never ever available.
Be aware!
I don't want to disagree with an expert like togps, but there are a couple of things about this guitar that seem like they could be correct, or close to correct. First, for sure there was a TST-80 Goldstar --there is a photo of a TST-80BB (black) with a 4 digit serial number, with Final Prospec saddles in a book/magazine called Young Guitar Japan Vintage vol.2 (pg16). With 1982 Springys only the higher end (ST-80 and up) models that are 1954 copies have 4 digit serials (at least according to Japan Vintage). My Japanese is really weak, but in the same publication, page 33 there is a reference to a TST-100! There are too many kanji for me to be able to read this, but if I can figure out how to post a scan I will try to put it up here--maybe someone else can translate!

The metal scratchplate is the thing that gets me. There is a PB-80 (1982 catalogue) that is the top-of-the-line Hardpuncher bass with a perfect match to the scratchplate on this Goldstar. They're goddawful ugly IMO but it's exactly the kind of custom thing this company would have done perhaps on a custom order? I've seen some earlier Fender guitars with this--I guess it's good for shielding pickups........

I own what I think is probably a fairly early 2 tone Sunburst Goldstar with a 2-piece alder body, what I believe to be Nitro finish and "U"stamped pickups and C profile maple neck (there was an identical Goldstar posted on the forum last spring? and I think the consensus was it was probably TST-50 or 60). Later Goldstars had "VI" stamped pickups if I'm not mistaken. If Richard's guitar is genuine, and were a transitional model (late '83-early'84), the "E" pickups would put this above my guitar. If it had a "V" profile neck, (nitro finish, E pickups 1 piece body??) I guess my line of thinking is that if all those factors are in place, even if this isn't a TST-100, (there is a slight chance in my mind that it could be....) it would be a TST-80.

Perhaps before we all jump on Richard and tell him to pull his auction we should ask him for some more photos? For one thing, I'd really like to know how many pieces the body is. If there were some photos of underneath the scratch plate where the finish is yellow it might be easier to tell how many pieces it is. The 3-tone sunburst, makes it really hard to see if there are any seams in the body. If it's one piece, that's a really promising sign this could be correct--if it's a 3-piece that's a deal-breaker. IMO that's a really dodgy looking headstock logo--I know these sometimes age badly but it looks a bit fake from the photos on the auction. If you can take a photo from a different angle that would show any wear on the logo that might help. Richard--if you're brave enough to pull the neck off that should be good proof that it's at least a Tokai neck--there are fairly distinctive stamps on the end of a Tokai neck. It's really not that hard to take a neck off (or even put it back on!)--someone recently posted good instructions on how to do it. Can we see some photos of the bridge assembly from the back, and perhaps some more of the pickup cavities? Also, details like the stamps on the back of the tuners (Deluxe, Tokai?). Profile of the neck (C, V, U?), with photos? I know it's a lot to ask, but it looks like there are some sceptics here....I'd love to see you prove them wrong! :oops: :D
Hi Cheshire, I have also owned a 2 tone sunbust goldie bought by me in 84,2piece body but almost certainly ash, U p`ups ,and with an st50 stamp, and very definately poly,not nitro finish. Gabe.
bluejeannot

rgrafend

Post by rgrafend » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:42 pm

Dear Richard!

Please allow me to share a similar experience. I bought a Springy ST80 from Japan without a headstock-logo. The guitar was crushed immediately by very few but well known forum members.

After a few months of research and drill-down into the details and with the help of some highly respected japanese sellers I could determine that it actually is an ST80 from 1979.

Please do not get frightened just because you or your guitar do not receive the appreciation you deserve.

Cheers. Rupert

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:07 pm

togps wrote: :o
May I decide, when I would like to be present at this forum or not!!!
Ok??
Yes of course. You are free to come and go as you please.

I don't want to go into the Springy affair again, as Ned has closed the thread. However, there was a Springy being discussed where there was some disagreement about whether it was an ST60 or an ST80. It had previously been sold by you as an ST60, but earlier described by you as an ST80. I was being told, by the seller, "togps said this" and "togps said that", & I was trying to establish the truth behind the various claims.

I wasn't the only forum member who said "where is togps?" - others did too. There was a lot of confusion and ill-feeling which could have been settled by a post from you clarifying the facts. However, you decided to say nothing. That may be your right, but it didn't help matters.

You are widely respected on this forum Gottfried, and your words carry a great deal of weight. All I wanted was for you to speak out and clarify matters for all of us.

You're entitled to remain silent, but there's no need to slap me down like a naughty schoolboy for merely commenting that your presence in the discussion was sorely missed.

Please note Ned - I'm not trying to re-start the discussion that you closed.

Mike

rgrafend

Post by rgrafend » Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:49 pm

I'd say Mike nailed it.

I admire Gottfried for his in-depth and long term knowledge about Tokai.

I spent a substantial amount of money and time buying great (and good) Tokai's from Gottfried as I did with MiJguitar, Hisashi and Mark. And I learned a lot.

But nobody got as arrogant as togps. I gave up and went ballistic, which was wrong too.

I believe to know what Gottfried is up to but I promised some time ago to keep it, and I will. However, I don't appreciate it at all. Since I started to question his motives he went "incommunicado".

So if you want to buy, he is a good source. But that's it.

Rupert, not sorry for being angry.

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More pictures

Post by CrusHtone » Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:15 am

Hello all,

I really do appreciate all the good natured input on the pedigree of this guitar. In my view, this is the forum at its best. Very healthy discussion, that helps us all learn more about the guitars we love. I welcome opinions on all sides of this coin. Since writing yesterday, I have gained a little more knowledge about this guitar, but will reserve my opinion, and let you guys have at it. I will tell you this:

A: It is 2 piece center seem.

B: Soft V neck

C: The tuners and the saddles are gold. They are just very faded. The bridge plate is not gold. I hope my pictures are good enough for you to see.

D: I forgot something until I was taking the closeup of the logo. I changed the string tree. It had a round one. But I didn't think it was period correct, and another Tokai strat I have wasn't correct with this string tree, so I swapped them.

I will have to take more pictures of the back cavity tomorrow. The ones I took came out blurry.

By the way, I know ya'll don't know me here. So I wanted to tell all of you a little bit about myself. I am a novice when it comes to Tokai, but I am pretty sharp when it comes to American guitars, even the minor brands like Kay and Silvertone, but especially Gretsch and Fender. Also, I know my way around amps very well. In fact I do my own repairs and actually build them myself. So please forgive me for not being very active around here, but I do spy on all of you a lot, but generally keep quite.

So, without further adieu, here are the pictures: http://www.holdcell.net/eb/100/100.htm, and let the games begin!

Kind regards,
Richard

P.S. I have seen some of you talk about how to tell if a guitar is nitro or poly. There is a simple nondestructive test you can do. Use a blacklight. Nitro puts off a ghostly green hue, and poly puts off a dark purple look. In fact, old nitro will somewhat glow.
Last edited by CrusHtone on Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

bluejeannot
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Post by bluejeannot » Wed Oct 31, 2007 4:51 am

So is this guitar nitro or poly Richard? It will help us if you shed alittle more light (black of course) on the subject. Gabe.
bluejeannot

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:15 am

Where can one purchase a blacklight? :o We should have a forum blacklight in every country - could save a lot of arguments!

Perhaps I can add a couple of points. First, there were Goldies with this type of decal on sale in London in December 1983. I know - I bought one! I found the old receipt last year when I had a sort out, so I know it's not a wrong memory. Presumably the block decal must have stopped at some point in 1983?

With regard to the decal looking wrong, as though it was applied later, well maybe it was, or maybe it wasn't. I haven't seen that on a Goldie before, but I have seen it on Springys. In fact one or two of the Springys that togps sold a few months ago on eBay had a decal that looked very similar in the way it had aged.

As to what Tokai thought they were copying, I would guess a 1954 Strat, though Tokai did tend to get some silly details wrong whilst getting most things spot on - they were funny like that. If the metal scratchplate is supposed to be a copy of the annodised aluminium that Leo used briefly in 1954, a round string tree would be correct for the period - Fender used them until 1955.

Mike

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Post by prinmy10 » Wed Oct 31, 2007 5:22 am

All manner of lights black:
http://www.blacklight.com/

Andy

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