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I Gave This Seller a NEGATIVE - What Would You Do?

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:54 pm
by MIJvintage
I purchased a Les Paul copy from eBay, with a laminate top BUT the very deceptive seller failed to describe the delaminating & shrinking laminate.
The laminate condition was undisclosed, as the seller completely neglected to mention the issue in his listing, and the photos were of poor quality & blurred.

The laminate has shrunk away from the bindings, nearly all the way aroung the perimeter of the body, leaving huge 1/16 inch gaps, all around the edges between the laminate & the binding.

I respectfully approached the seller, contacting him first to ask why he would fail to mention such damage in his listing.

First thing lead to another so I filed a PayPal claim, since I paid via PayPal.

Now get this; the seller tells PayPal that he will file fraud charges against PayPal & me, if PayPal sides with me, in my claim, LOL............

I ended up leaving the guy a BIG FAT RED NEGATIVE, because he deserves it.

I'm sure the seller will leave me a neg too but at least I know I didn't try to cheat someone, like the seller did by failing to be truthful.

So, check the photos, and ask yourselves; Would I want to buy a guitar from a seller that passes off this kinda crap, with UNdisclosed issues?

Live & learn.........................................



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Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:20 pm
by honeyboy
Sell it as a 'relic' for more than you paid for it.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 3:17 am
by JohnA
I think you have done the right thing, hopefully you will get some compensation from Paypal.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:28 am
by Ducati
Let's see the original auction before we decide.

Not all sellers are professional guitar dealers. Every ebay purchase is a risk. Some people honestly don't know or don't care about such details that may affect your ability to resell a guitar.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:41 am
by dosmun
It's always best to make sure you get clear pics of everything you want to see before pulling the trigger. I am not siding with the seller at all, but as usual buyer beware. I hope you get it worked out because it does suck to be taken.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:06 pm
by MIJvintage
Ducati wrote:Let's see the original auction before we decide.

Not all sellers are professional guitar dealers. Every ebay purchase is a risk. Some people honestly don't know or don't care about such details that may affect your ability to resell a guitar.
That's fair enough but anyone wanting to see the listing will have to PM me for the link, as I don't want to get the PTB that govern this forum, in an awkward mood.
As far as the particular seller is concerned, he is a 'guitar dealer' as you state but certainly not professional, by any means.
ALSO, I never stated a purchase of the guitar for resale.

Please see the below email that I sent the seller. In the email you can see direct quotes taken from the seller's listing. The seller never made a single mention in his listing, concerning any laminate shrinkage, or delamination issues. Also, please see the below photos, from the seller's listing. The issues with the laminate are not obvious from the seller's poor quality & blurred photos.

As an eBay member, I believe that it is incumbent upon any seller (myself included) to tell the truth concerning listed items, and particularlly so when the issue is obvious to the seller listing the item. I really do not believe the seller is blind, rather I believe the seller was attempting to pass off something to an unsuspecting buyer, which he was successful in doing.

The seller even states, "biggest cosmetic issue is the two large scratches on the top", which is a complete & utter lie. The scratches that the seller mentions are about 1/128 inch into the finish/clearcoat, very small. The laminate shrinkage around the egdes is a full 1/16 inch, which is 8 times the width of the, "biggest cosmetic issue".
Yes, I would say that the seller was lying.

I do not believe that it is incumbent for any potential buyer to ask a seller any & every question immaginable, just to get at the truth of the condition of an item. Again, it is incumbent upon the seller to be honest enough to give any & all potential bidders/buyers reliable & accurate information.

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Ed,

I have been extremely busy since receiving the Greco so, I have just now gotten around to replying to you, concerning the transaction.

There are several items within this transaction that have been red flags for me, all of which I can overlook, and move on but one item is a sticking point.

I really don't believe it was necessary for you to complain to me, the buyer, and in such detail, your frustration with the shipping process.
You did this on more than one occasion, and doing it even once, is too much.
That is totally unprofessional, IMO.
This is a red flag for me but I can move past it.

The pickups are not Double Trick pickups, as stated in your listing; they are PU 2 pickups.
Any seller, including you, could have easily removed 4 screws, and the type of pickups would have been very obvious.
This demonstrates a disregard for an accurate description, for an item that is easily identified, by a very simple procedure.
This is a red flag for me but I can move past it.

The stop tail & studs are not original to the guitar, as the patina does not match, whatsoever. The very clever fashion in which the listing is worded, leads a reader to believe that the hardware, with the exception of the tuners, are a matched set.
This is a red flag for me but I can move past it.

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Your description includes many items, some of which are "If you have the skills you could fill in the scratches in the finish"..........."beat up, scratches into the finish, wear and dings, beat up and played hard, chipping in the finish"................"frets still good, no need for refretting"............."biggest cosmetic issue is the two large scratches on the top".............."structurally there are no problems, no breaks"..........

I do agree with most of the above descriptions, and have absolutely no problem with most of the above descriptions BUT you failed to mention the FACT that the laminate top is delaminated in many areas, AND that the laminate top has ALSO shrunk from the inside edges of the binding in many areas, most prominently at the two larger bouts. This shrinking of the laminate top has left huge gaps between the edges of the laminate top, and the inside edges of the binding, as much as 1/16 inch, and for lengths running as long as 6 inches.
This is a HUGE red flag for me, and I find this fact completely unacceptable.
The fact that the laminate top has delaminated, and shrunk in certain areas, does NOT agree with your listing claim, "biggest cosmetic issue is the two large scratches on the top" or "structurally there are no problems, no breaks" because the issue is BOTH a cosmetic, and structural issue.
I do not understand why you made such a big deal of the scratches on the top, while you completely failed to mention the gaping spaces between the shrinking laminate, and the inside edges of the binding.
I believe that anyone viewing your listing surely deserved to know of this issue, as it would likely have been the biggest issue for most viewers, and is certainly an unacceptable issue for me.

I would appreciate a responsible reply.

Regards,
Rich

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Seller's poor quality & blurred photos
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Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:22 pm
by tudor
Rich,

that's unfortunately a rotten deal for you ... but the seller had taken the photos from an angle you were not able to realize the gaps of the shrinked lam ... clever ... and obviously ... a deliberately fraud ... :( :(

Hope you'll get that sorted ... :wink:

Roger

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:43 pm
by MIJvintage
Roger, Thanks for that. :)
I can only hope that my misfortune here, can be a warning to others, to look out for the few eBay members that take advantage of their fellow eBayers.

To me, eBay is a community, just like this forum is, and why would any of us want to pull a fast one on one of our own?

It's a learning experience, it will be all good sooner or later

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 4:56 pm
by Ducati
Seeing the auction I have to say that I would be disappointed as well. It does look pretty rough but the problem seems to have been overlooked somewhat. I can see it now in the photos, after I know what to look for, but probably wouldn't have noticed from the auction (in fact I didn't cause I think I viewed this one). I thought it strange that the seller mentions "retop" but now I guess it makes sense.

I guess this is one more relevant question to ask when buying a lam top guitar? Or just something to scrutinize extra carefully.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:08 pm
by tudor
Rich,

I've done many businesses across the pond during the last years - selling and buying - but ( knocking on wood !!! ) never have had such a numskull until today ... :o :o
I agree with you ... a certain basic leap of faith must exist between both, bidder and seller, otherwise you'll go crazy because it's not a game but a serious biz ... unfortunately some guys don't recognize that and losing their temper when being pointed out to that fact !!! 8) 8)

NO Mercy !!! :wink: :wink:

Roger

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:36 pm
by MIJvintage
as a side note: anyone attempting to contact other eBay members, via eBay, please do NOT check the box to hide your email addy, as eBay often bars contact via their web site, for parties with no current transactions...............

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:42 am
by stratman323
Sounds like a rough deal, so you have my sympathy, but I'm not clear why you haven't posted a link to the ad. I would have thought that the point of sharing your misfortune with other forum members is to help us to avoid getting scammed in the same way as you seem to have been. Letting us see the advert, and the identity of the seller, would assist with this. I'd certainly like to make sure that I don't buy anything from this seller, but I don't know who he is...

Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:16 am
by MIJvintage
stratman323 wrote:Sounds like a rough deal, so you have my sympathy, but I'm not clear why you haven't posted a link to the ad. I would have thought that the point of sharing your misfortune with other forum members is to help us to avoid getting scammed in the same way as you seem to have been. Letting us see the advert, and the identity of the seller, would assist with this. I'd certainly like to make sure that I don't buy anything from this seller, but I don't know who he is...
AS I stated earlier, "anyone wanting to see the listing will have to PM me for the link, as I don't want to get the PTB that govern this forum, in an awkward mood."

You see, Ned has previously taken offense to my exposing suspect sellers, and this has caused problems, because Ned believes that I was blasting my, "perceived competition".

So, as a courtesy to Ned, if you would like the listing link, I will provide it via PM only, but I won't post it here.

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:41 pm
by 2loudaudio
One of my first buys on Ebay was a Les Paul copy where the seller had described the guitar as "all original, totally mint" or words to that effect, and the pics seemed to back that up.

So when I received the guitar, I was surprised to find that the guitar was perfect - except for the added phase switch that was drilled into the top near the volume/tone controls. Ouch!

So I went back the listing and sure enough, all the pics had been taken at just such an angle as to either just miss the switch or hide it behind the control knobs. Very artful.

Of course the seller denied everything and wouldn't refund any $$$. My only consolation was to leave him SCATHING negative feedback, or as scathing as one can be in the modest space that Ebay provides. Yes, the seller gave me negative feedback but since I'm usually a buyer on Ebay I really don't care. Ended up selling the guitar to a dealer at a show and took about a 50% loss.

I've since become much more careful about asking questions, and always look carefully at a seller's feedback, but the Ebay process is inherently risky and losses or disappointments are inevitable. My latest disappointment was with a Tokai where the listing showed a very bright CSB top, and the reality when it arrived was a much darker top with the red actually much closer to brown. Again I went back to the listing pics, and you'd swear it was a different guitar! So was it the flash, or a mild manipulation using photo software?

What would you do?

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:25 pm
by Smokin' Tone
MIJvintage wrote:
You see, Ned has previously taken offense to my exposing suspect sellers, and this has caused problems, because Ned believes that I was blasting my, "perceived competition".

So, as a courtesy to Ned, if you would like the listing link, I will provide it via PM only, but I won't post it here.
I have stayed way from this guy in the past as well. His email responses were usually somewhat rude and he never completely answered my questions. Sorry you had to take the hit on feedback but that is why the system is there. Too many people are afraid to leave a negative when they get a bum deal so we go on thinking that the seller is ok. That is why the system is there even though it's not a real good one. Kudos to you for standing up.