Breezy Pricing

Music stores and pawn shops where Tokai guitars have been spotted for sale. New or used.

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ian
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Breezy Pricing

Post by ian » Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:48 am

Here?s a TE50, basic model, of uncertain age, with boogered H-stock, presumably routed for middle pup & drilled for extra switch, now why would anyone pay $950 for that (why would anyone ask $950 for it) :roll: .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 92093&rd=1

Ian.

CS Jones
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Post by CS Jones » Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:10 am

From what little I know so far...no way. Maybe he's just hoping all he needs is to put out the Tokai name and some sucker (like me) will fall for it.

Ian, what about this one...what would it be worth, in your opinion. Yeah, I know that's a loaded question but just something in the ballpark of what it's worth.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... RK:MEWA:IT

I'm not much for the look of that Sen ash but is that what they used for most of these.
Clay

ian
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Post by ian » Tue Feb 15, 2005 12:55 pm

Hi Clay ? well first I think it looks a nice example of a very good guitar. Value, I reckon about $750 (without original case), but wouldn?t be surprised if it sells for more (& maybe up to $850 or more very soon). Those early 7okai Springys fetch around twice as much as similar mid 80?s Goldstar.

The Japanese Ash (?Sen?) usually has that tighter less dramatic grain compared to US Ash, but otherwise I think it?s virtually identical (inc. tone), though I?m not sure if that one is Ash or Alder ? pretty nice colour/finish though. Can?t see if fretboard is stamped 60 or not, and also can?t see if it has correct 1980 seven digit serial No. (neckplate), seller is very reliable but maybe need to ask about that stuff.

You thinking of bidding? :-?

Ian.

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Post by CS Jones » Tue Feb 15, 2005 4:12 pm

Yes, Ian...been thinking about it. Why the crumpled smiley face? (I'm not too sure what that one means really). Something not quite right you think?

Also, thanks for your help.

Clay

ian
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Post by ian » Wed Feb 16, 2005 1:59 am

Yeah I'm not sure about that particular smiley, I just use it as a general wry smile at the end of a message, just a sort of friendly sign-off. By the way, I think that Springy was on eBay two weeks ago & didn't reach reserve, only bid upto $610 if I remember right (high bidder was a guy called "shakyboys" who buys & sells lots of stuff). Cue the crumpled smiley ... :-? .

Ian.

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Post by Cybercat » Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:43 am

ian wrote: (snip)
The Japanese Ash (?Sen?) usually has that tighter less dramatic grain compared to US Ash, but otherwise I think it?s virtually identical (inc. tone), though I?m not sure if that one is Ash or Alder ? pretty nice colour/finish though (snip)


Iit's Sen, the Alder ones were mainly (all?) made in '82, & have much finer grain.

Looks pretty nice to me!

Clay - for more info you could contact my friend Greg in UK, he has been collecting a few years & knows far more than I do (he's now selling off his Fenders & focusing on Tokais I think!). I don't really collect, all my guitars get gigged a lot! 8)

pm me & I'll give you his e-mail address & introduce you.

Cheers, Bill.
Bill - Hong Kong.
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Post by CS Jones » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:15 am

Well, looks like I bought another one. :o

Now the question again becomes..."what inconspicuous place can I put this so that when she finally notices it I can say - 'oh that old thing...I've had it for a long time now!'".

Yes Bill that would be very nice of you, I'd like that a lot. I don't really consider myself a collector either though. I just tend to go through cycles every other year or so and load up on gear. One year it's pedals, then amps, then guitars, then sheetmusic/songbooks then CDs etc. etc. I usually sell off most of what I've gathered up at a loss really (cue Ian's crumpled smiley again :-? - not too badly though :D ). That's one of the reasons I've liked ebay all these years - it gives us the chance to try a broad variety of things out; things that we'd otherwise not be able to access. Actually I've watched Tokais for probably five years but never really dug into the specifics of them. Just recently I sold a boatload of equipment and it just seemed like finally the time to take the plunge.

Wish me luck on the Springy Sound guys...I'll give a report of it when it gets in. I have NO idea what to expect of it. I just hope it's somewhat close to original.

I'd like to get one more and then call it a day. Maybe an LS80 or an LS 100.

Clay

ian
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Post by ian » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:06 am

Bill, you seem very sure. How do you know that one is Sen?

American & European Ash (of which there are numerous species) typically has a wide & wild grain pattern with a series of wavy curves, however, it can show, & frequently does show, a completely different grain pattern of tight straight parallel lines just like the Tokai in Clay?s link. It shows numerous other effects too, inc. quilting & ?lightening strikes?, a small oval markings like Burr?s & Birds eyes ? just about the only consistent feature is an open grain structure which quickly fills with dirt & grime (on unpainted surfaces) & shows as a series of small black dashes.

American & European Alder (again, many different species) usually has a tighter more linear grain than Ash (more like Spruce or Cedar), ie less wild swirly curves, but again its highly variable ? it usually looks very similar to the Tokai in Clays link, however, it can look almost indistinguishable from Ash.

Sen is a Japanese name for a species of local Ash. Typically the grain is like a cross between US Ash & Alder, ie usually not as highly figured as US Ash, but more figured than plainer examples of Alder.

There was a recent discussion on the Telecaster Forum (TDPRI) where many very experienced guys were ?certain? that a particular guitar body was alder, but in fact it turned out it was almost certainly a very plain piece of US Ash. Point is you really can?t tell unless you took the stuff to a Lab, & even then you?d have to rate their conclusion as a probability rather than any definite fact.

I can?t read the Japanese in the early pre-85 catalogues, so I don?t know what Tokai themselves claim, though one early translation (German I think) seems to give ST100 & above with Ash (?Esche?), and ST80 & below with Alder (?Erle?;.. see Registry). However, I wouldn?t regard Tokais catalogues as Gospel either :-? .

Ian.

ian
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Post by ian » Wed Feb 16, 2005 11:23 am

Clay ? this is getting serious man, you?re buying way too many guitars lol :lol: .

Seriously, ? congratulations ? that?s a very nice looking Springy. Please let us know what you think when it arrives. Crumpled smile? :-? .

Ian.
ps:- old LS100 is same as LS80, except Dimarizio pups (doubtful benefit) ... LS80 Reborn from 1978-79 is super guitar (why?... er,... I'm keeping quite on that :wink: ) .

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Post by CS Jones » Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:52 am

Hi Bill,
Thank you for the offer to help. Very kind of you. I will PM you about that.

Clay

p.s. I'd love to find an LS80 like Ian mentions :)

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Post by Cybercat » Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:23 am

ian wrote:Bill, you seem very sure. How do you know that one is Sen?

American & European Ash (of which there are numerous species) typically has a wide & wild grain pattern with a series of wavy curves, however, it can show, & frequently does show, a completely different grain pattern of tight straight parallel lines just like the Tokai in Clay?s link. It shows numerous other effects too, inc. quilting & ?lightening strikes?, a small oval markings like Burr?s & Birds eyes ? just about the only consistent feature is an open grain structure which quickly fills with dirt & grime (on unpainted surfaces) & shows as a series of small black dashes.

American & European Alder (again, many different species) usually has a tighter more linear grain than Ash (more like Spruce or Cedar), ie less wild swirly curves, but again its highly variable ? it usually looks very similar to the Tokai in Clays link, however, it can look almost indistinguishable from Ash.

Sen is a Japanese name for a species of local Ash. Typically the grain is like a cross between US Ash & Alder, ie usually not as highly figured as US Ash, but more figured than plainer examples of Alder.

There was a recent discussion on the Telecaster Forum (TDPRI) where many very experienced guys were ?certain? that a particular guitar body was alder, but in fact it turned out it was almost certainly a very plain piece of US Ash. Point is you really can?t tell unless you took the stuff to a Lab, & even then you?d have to rate their conclusion as a probability rather than any definite fact.

I can?t read the Japanese in the early pre-85 catalogues, so I don?t know what Tokai themselves claim, though one early translation (German I think) seems to give ST100 & above with Ash (?Esche?), and ST80 & below with Alder (?Erle?;.. see Registry). However, I wouldn?t regard Tokais catalogues as Gospel either :-? .

Ian.
Hi Ian,

I appreciate all that you say, & yes, at times it can be confusing. This particular example that Clay has bought does indeed show many similarities to various alder-bodied Fender Strats I've seen over the years, including one from 1964 which I've had since 1972 (pics on my homepage, though may be hard to see the grain in the old pics from '73)

However, I'm as sure as I can be that Clays one is, in fact, Sen Ash.

I've been playing, setting-up, repairing, putting together, stripping & refinishing strats for slightly over 30 years now, have built a few from scratch too (pics of my refinish work going back 30 years on my homepage, link below). I didn't get my hands on a Tokai (my brother's Springy) till around 1982, but have been lucky enough to play & work on many since then.

In addition to this, I have a collector friend from UK & Australia who gets Springys (& JVs & other Fender Japan Strats & recently Love Rocks, Reborns etc.) shipped to me here in Hong Kong for him to collect later (HK is a "free port" & avoids unnecessary taxes/duties/VAT or whatever, especially if will re-sell to US or elsewhere later). I get to play & evaluate, & often work on them. Some stay with me for a couple of years or more. :-)

If a re-fret is needed, my good friend, world-class luthier Simon Pinder, takes care of that. Simon was previously based in Tokyo for several years & has been a great Tokai aficionado for a very long while. He has kindly shared a lot of his considerable knowledge about wood, Tokais, & Japanese guitars in general.
A few years ago I set up his website for him (now taken down at his request, he's permanently swamped with work), including a long section on tonewoods.

I also teach guitar (11 students today) & many of my students have Japanese "strat" type guitars, including Tokais, which I help them set up, & often do other work on.

Helping my collector friend has meant both of us scouring the net, eBay etc. daily for the last 5 years to look for likely candidates, discuss possible purchases etc., & we have got to see a fair selection of Springy photos over the last 5-6 years in addition to the ones I've been lucky enough to get my hands on. Unfortunately due to my regular gigging with several different bands & a pretty full schedule teaching 6 days a week, I can't spend as much time online as my friend, who has a far better knowledge of Tokais than I. Hence low posts in this & other forums, too busy playing, practicing, teaching & fixing guitars to spend much time online typing about it... (*& my typing sucks, hehe!)

I don't claim to be infallible, or anything near it, & of course we all make mistakes from time to time. Ash & Alder can vary a lot, & there are times, as you mention, where it can be confusing even for experts with far more experience than I. However, the alder-bodied Tokai Springys I have seen so far seem to exhibit a consistent difference to the Sen ones. I also remember reading in a couple of different places that alder was only used in the last year of production. Not sure on this point (wish "London Barry" was still here, I'm sure he'd know for certain). I have students coming & need to dash now, but I attach a few pics of what I feel to be a fairly typical alder-bodied Springy, you can see the grain & wood pattern is far less distinct than on the guitar which Clay just bought. Of course I could very well be wrong, Ian, but in this case I don't think I am.

Hope some of this has been useful!

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ian
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Post by ian » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:22 am

Hi Bill ? very interesting & considered reply, appreciate it :-? .

OK, well I think we each have a position which is clear from those two posts, & not a million miles apart :-? .

Ian.

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