Tokai ES-100 in London

Music stores and pawn shops where Tokai guitars have been spotted for sale. New or used.

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stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:50 am

I am not going to criticize this particular tech, after one brief experience, but my general impression of most guitar techs is that they tend to be, erm, well, not very good. :-? If you find a good one, don't lose contact with him! Where possible I prefer to do most basic adjustments myself, just leaving the more complicated stuff (fret stoning etc.) to my local tech, who is good.

I was thinking about the string tension business though, & I can't work out the logic. A string has to be at a certain pitch to give a certain note - it's 440 hz for A, isn't it? So to get to that pitch, it has to be tightened to a certain tension, which will vary depending on the gauge of the string.

Right so far?

Well, changing the height of the tailpiece can't increase the tension of a string, because if it did, that would increase the pitch.

Or am I missing something?

:o
Last edited by stratman323 on Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:58 am

Ozeshin wrote:OMFG.. :o
I've never known that in all my years of playing...racing home to check the hight of ALL my ABR fitted guitars :oops:
Thank you Ozeshin! I'm a bit of a virgin with Gibson type guitars, but if an experienced LP player like you didn't know this stuff, I feel much better about not knowing it.

It does also suggest that it doesn't make a huge difference, of course.....

leadguitar_323
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Post by leadguitar_323 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:11 am

I think your right Mike, i top wrap mine so that blows this one out of the water. I have no trouble staying in tune and now i very rarely break a string plus it feels "looser" to play making it easier on my fingers.

Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

stratmoto
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Post by stratmoto » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:34 am

stratman323 wrote: Well, changing the height of the tailpiece can't increase the tension of a string, because if it did, that would increase the pitch.

:o
Absolutely right. All bets are off, though, once you start with some string bending.

Tuning is a function of tension between the nut and the bridge saddle.

The "feel" is a function of the tension between the terminating ends of the string, ie, tuner post and tailpiece. The overall "length" of the string can be physically the same on 2 guitars. But, the break angle over the nut and the TOM have an impact on the tension that you feel. You may notice that when topwraped, you have to bend the string a little more to get the same pitch change, compared to standard stringing, but the effort to move it is less.

A lute, for example, with its' almost 90 degree break angle would feel stiffer to bend on than an identical instrument with say a 17 or 18 degree headstock. Does that analogy help?

You can work out the tension changes when bending, using some trigonometry, but once you get your head around the concept, it becomes pretty obvious.

On the MIC Tokais I leave them hard down on the body, like they come from the factory. The MIJ's usually come with around 17 ~ 18 degree break angle. I have made a little template to check the angle over the bridge. I reckon that is the way Mr L.W.Polfus would like to see them too.

Clear as mud?? :D

edit.

A clearer explanation and a couple of examples to help clarify here...

http://www.noyceguitars.com/Technotes/Articles/T3.html

leadguitar_323
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Post by leadguitar_323 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:02 am

Yep, spot on. A little bit further to bend but it still has a "softer" feel, larger bends are easier as well.

Mick
so many guitars....so little money...

marcusnieman
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Post by marcusnieman » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:26 am

Get Dan Erlewine's book(s) on guitar care and maintenance. :wink:

Donkey Oaty
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Post by Donkey Oaty » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:11 am

stratmoto wrote:
Tuning is a function of tension between the nut and the bridge saddle.

The "feel" is a function of the tension between the terminating ends of the string, ie, tuner post and tailpiece. The overall "length" of the string can be physically the same on 2 guitars. But, the break angle over the nut and the TOM have an impact on the tension that you feel. You may notice that when topwraped, you have to bend the string a little more to get the same pitch change, compared to standard stringing, but the effort to move it is less.
Thats the kiddie.

Break angle is where its at.


Top wrap throws another spanner in the works as well, but its all rock 'n' roll.

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:26 pm

I took the ES100 back today, & got a full refund, no problems at all. Decent people, & 10 out of 10 to Wunjo for honesty & customer service. Apparently they have somebody waiting who wants to buy it for what I paid - I wonder if it's a forum member?

It's taught me that out of phase can sound great on a 335, so I'm going to get my ES130 done, with a push-pull pot to give me the choice. That's a job for my tech! I assume the standard Tokai humbuckers only have two wires from them?

The other lesson is how consistent Tokais are - those two ESs were hard to tell apart. I do wonder about the nitro top coat over poly on the 130 though, it really didn't feel any different to the poly on the 100.

marcusnieman
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Post by marcusnieman » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:14 am

stratman323 wrote: It's taught me that out of phase can sound great on a 335, so I'm going to get my ES130 done, with a push-pull pot to give me the choice. That's a job for my tech!
Cool. Never thought of doing that..... I've always had to find that tone by picking the strings right about where the end of the fretboard meets the body.

stratman323

Post by stratman323 » Wed Dec 17, 2008 6:54 am

It's a good sound, maybe as much T-Bone Walker as it is Peter Green, but that's not exactly a bad thing, is it?

:wink:

marcusnieman
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Post by marcusnieman » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:12 am

stratman323 wrote:It's a good sound, maybe as much T-Bone Walker as it is Peter Green, but that's not exactly a bad thing, is it?

:wink:
:wink:

Goestoeleven
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Post by Goestoeleven » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:52 am

:o Blimey! The tailpiece on my LS85F has been screwed down as far as it'll go since when I first bought it.

I've set it up properly now, in that I can just slip a business card between the bottom of the strings and the ABR1.

Can't say it sounds any different, but if it stops any damage to the guitar it's worth it.

Thanks Chaps! :D

(I know nothing about LP type set-ups) :oops:
"My guitar is definitely a P**** extension. I play with it behind locked doors for my own amusement"

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