HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

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nunimuller
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HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:59 am

Hello Experts!! I am considering buying a Greco Super Sounds, Serial starting with F76...., SE600... BUT the color of this guitar is DAPHE BLUE OR SONIC BLUE, I dont know.... But I have searched online to try and find another Greco with same color with no success..

So... Is this the original color OR a REFINISH?

https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB ... f6bebceb86

I am negotiating it so I appreciate fast replies....

BrazenPickerNew
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:07 am

Beautiful guitar but I've never seen that color. I'm pretty certain that's a refin. Tuners look correct, and those Excel pickups are very nice. Looks like it's had a refret also?

Now, the price is crazy high (around 1500 US?) for this. In Japan you can buy them all day long for a third of that.
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nunimuller
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:37 am

Upon mentioning the refinish, got the price down to 1000 US.

Things here in Brazil are pricey, specially vintage. (crazy import charges)

I am also considering these two deliciousnesses:

https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB ... iginal-_JM

https://produto.mercadolivre.com.br/MLB ... 18b6537fda

Which one seems more special? Greco SE600 Super Sounds 1976 Refinished in Daphne Blue? Yamaha Super R'Nroller 1977? Or the gorgeous early Tokai Springy Sound?

I would really appreciate your opinions guys... It's a blessing to have this forum to read and learn so much...

Cheers...
Last edited by nunimuller on Tue Dec 17, 2019 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:41 am

BrazenPickerNew wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:07 am
Beautiful guitar but I've never seen that color. I'm pretty certain that's a refin. Tuners look correct, and those Excel pickups are very nice. Looks like it's had a refret also?

Now, the price is crazy high (around 1500 US?) for this. In Japan you can buy them all day long for a third of that.
Thanks for the confirmation BrazenPickerNew, just wanted to make sure there was no crazy customness or special edition... I was almost convinced already it was a refin due to the lack of info about it....

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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Tue Dec 17, 2019 9:42 pm

Don't know much about Yamaha, except that it's generally a high-quality brand. Seems like a low-end model with the 2-piece neck (look at the headstock) and chrome non-Kluson tuners. Now if you could first play it and get the price down a lot... But online at this price, you'd be much better off buying direct from Japan via a retailer like Ishibashi or an agent.

The second one, I wonder if those pickups are original? The wiring looks weird and no stamp on the bottom plate. The pickguard is non-original. One of the attractions of those old Tokais is the nice yellowing plastics.

So far the Greco looks like the least bad option. At least there I can see the owner is trying to recoup the cost of a refin (that looks nice IMO) and refret (another advantage).
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nunimuller
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Wed Dec 18, 2019 4:23 am

I was wondering about the Springy Sounds as well, if the pickups are original, my question is if they were ever produced withou the U or E markings.......

I did really like the Greco and was considering it even with the refinish.

BUT YESTERDAY the owner took it to his luthier to ask about the finish, and his luthier told him that the refinish is original from the guitar and that in Japan, people would go to the Fugigen Gakki company and order custom color models, and this model is a custom colour! So based on his luthier opinion, he has decided to cancel the discount he was giving to me due to the refinish, and now believing this refinish is original he wants to repost the guitar for sale at a higher price.....

Is that possible? I didn't find ANY Greco Super Sounds custom colour online... How could the luthier confirm that? Is that any kind of test you can make that I am unaware of? Os was it just a guess or a dream he had?

Thanks again BrazenPickerNew for your insight

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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:58 am

I'm not sure at all if I remember this correctly, but I have a vague recollection reading somewhere about greybottom pickups that didn't have the stamp. Maybe others can chime in. That messy blue and black wiring is unfamiliar to me as well, but who knows. I have 8 or 9 Springy Sounds, but all from the 78-81 period and the one you linked is 1982. EIther way, if you ever want to sell that guitar again, it's going to be a pain having to convince the new buyer, so at this price it's not worth it.

As for that blue Greco having an original finish, I already thought it looked relic'd based on the wear pattern (not natural wear). It's always possible it was a special request or sprayed in this color as a one-off, but it would take more to convince me than that seller story. I don't want to shoot everything down here, but all these guitars are outlandishly overpriced. If you order one from Ishibashi, even if you pay 30% import duties and tax, and about 120 dollars in shipping (could be cheaper with a slower option), you're still only looking at maybe 700 US$ for a nice ST-50 or ST-60 (or equivalent Greco, Navigator Esparto, Fernandes,... in good condition). Even an ST-80 in good condition could be imported for less.
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:44 pm

Hey Brazen

I ended up buying the blue Greco supposedly a SE600
The painting is really different, almost seems like it was painted over a natural finish guitar. The owner said he bought it 10 years ago in Japan and brought it to Brazil. He always thought it was a custom color. It seems to me that the paint job was done in Japan. Upon opening the pickup cavities, I found two small japanese letters stamped on top of the blue finish, inside the bridge pickup cavity

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_tgkb ... UtD5K3hJr1

I will be attaching more links for images below. Also there was a red marking inside the neck pocket but it seems the owner removed it while cleaning the guitar when packing it. I will be sending images that he took before wiping it off... it shows a red stamp inside de neck pocket.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=149SYs ... 4nMaHP7G47

I finally got it for close to 1k dollars. The guitar plays amazingly and sounds terrific. I am in love with it. Got slightly damaged on the fretboard during shipping, due to poor packaging... But even so, I love it.
I have been having problems with the finish... if I play it for too long, wherever my body is touching the guitar, causes the finish to get sticky.... armrest stop.. contact with my shorts, jeans... if it sits on some fabrics for too long the finish starts getting soft... Have you guys ever had that problem? Even if the finish is not original, I love it and intend to keep it. For now... Owner never had this problem, I winder if being rubbed with furniture polisher and then packed with paper around it very tight could have suffocated the paint.. anyways... thanks for your time Brazen Picker!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cWKRC ... KgMopjkWGt
https://drive.google.com/open?id=15F04s ... AuW7mqaUtU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uB-Yh ... bm_Lr3eJSw
https://drive.google.com/open?id=134MdW ... at02TG9X9Y
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1TDjdx ... FNULlSF0dj
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_Hgus ... KNl7ZxDfVv
https://drive.google.com/open?id=103xR9 ... oLMpi74Si5

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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:14 am

Congrats! Gorgeous guitar. I agree with your assessments. My best guess is it's a refin over the common natural finish of that era. I love the color and if you count the cost of getting it refinished and refretted (am I right?) then that guitar is worth what you paid for it. The Excel pickups are also really nice. Can't help you with the markings as I don't speak Japanese but maybe someone will chime in. The cavity routings under the pickguard look typical for that era Greco Strats.

Re the paint rubbing off, I hope it's not the furniture polish interacting with the paint. Is it nitro? You can test that with acetone (nail polish remover) applied over a very small area. Not sure what to recommend there, although maybe start by finding out the composition of the furniture polish used, and perhaps the luthiers subforum on thegearpage is a good place to ask. I'd wipe it with a moist rag to clear off any residue of the furniture polish. I've never heard of this problem, so that's the most likely cause IMO.
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nunimuller
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by nunimuller » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:55 am

I have found out that the two japanese letters inside the bridge cavity mean: "Fire" and "Moon". The only thing that makes any sense with the guitar world would be "Japanese Maple", also called Moonfire

Makes any sense? Anyways, have another question for you Brazen, if you may..

My guitar says: Greco SUPERSOUNDS on the headstock. I have read in other forums that if a guitar has "Supersounds" on the headstock, could not be higher than a SE500. Do you know how the headstocks differ according to models? Is it possible for my guitar to be a SE600 having the headstock it has and no red stamp in neck pocket? Did excel pickups appear on models lower than se600?

If you have any good material for me to read please send me. But I find that the best source of knowledge about this stuff is talking to people in the forums.....

Cheers!

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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:41 pm

I'm also not too sure, but at least later they would use Sparkle Sound for an SE-600, so my best guess is that it was the same in 1976. Excel pickups would normally mean SE-600 and up, but if they're as inconsistent as Tokai (which I have more experience with), that's not a sure way to tell. My best guess is it's an SE-500 because it says Super Sound, but with better than spec pickups put in that day. I'd do some searches looking for 1976 SE500 and 600 to see if the headstock is a tell. My best guess is the only difference would be the number of body pieces. Can you tell the join lines under the finish? I once bought a Greco SE-800 Super Real that turned out to have a "5" stamped body and it had many many body pieces visible under the black finish, at least 5. In your case that's unlikely even for a 500 if it was a natural finish first.

Other than price, the odds of getting a good one are just as good between a 500 and 600, so personally I wouldn't care. For Tokai, I actually prefer ST-50 over 60 as I prefer the slightly hotter U pickups over the Es.

PS: you could also ask on Strat Talk as there's some MIJ fans lurking there as well.
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by BrazenPickerNew » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:08 pm

PS: some good info here.

https://japtone.com/en/chapter-iv-histo ... ising-sun/

Based on this, I believe it's an SE-500.
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Re: HELP ME: 1976 Super Sounds: Original Color OR REFINISH?

Post by Voidoid56 » Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:33 am

Interesting post. Just thought I'd add a few cents worth of input:

On the one hand, Greco were really conservative in terms of Strat finishes. The standard catalog models were usually available in 2- and 3-tone burst, black, white and natural. Some exceptions apply, like the stained violin burst used on 500s and 600s in 1978, and the short-lived Fiesta Red/torty 1979 SE500PR (a Peter Frampton sig model that nobody apparently bought).
On the other, Greco had a custom shop-like operation going from very early on (since 1972, according to one catalog) and so there are lots of custom and short-run store order guitars around.
Personally, I think your blue guitar is a refin. Custom or short-run guitars tend to have more differences from standard than than just the colour. As I recall, I've only seen one factory blue Greco SE, but that was a "LAOX Original", part of a 1978 production run for a store chain, but that was a metallic finish and also featured a Fender Mustang-style racing stripe.

From what I can see, the Tokai you linked to is not a 1982 as the seller stated, but a fairly early 1978, i e from the first full year of production. It's got the early small, blank neck plate and a 7-digit serial neck stamp beginning with 8. To me, the pickups look very much like they're out of a Silver Star CBS-era copy, not a Springy. Most were unstamped (though S and H are also seen) and the black and blue wires are typical.

Greco SE headstock decals... you basically need to make an Excel sheet to track all the changes through the years... but the large cap Super Sounds moniker guitars are either 500s or 600s. There are two versions, one all-black and one with a bit of gold trim. As I recall, the latter was initially just 600 and then came in on 500s as well. Don't remember exactly when, but during the last couple of years of the 70's I think. Then there are the small-cap Super Sound (no s) decals, used on pre-CBS copies from as early as 1976 (on the SE800)... suffice to say that it's complicated. :-)

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