MIJ Vs Custom shop

So here's one for you guys......Its hypothetical at the moment, but when I next come into money I intend to put it into practice, so this is a serious query.

Do I get an R9 (or R8) or a high end MIJ Lester? please try and be ojective here, and I'm only really talking about secondhand guitars - 10 years old or more. Oh, and remember, in the UK Gibson prices are about double USA prices, so a new R9 would list for about ?5000 ($9000) I think.

The aim is to get a high end guitar that I can keep for life and then pass on to kids/grandkids.

I'd want late 50s type features. Nitro finish, nickle parts, nice PAF type
pickups, good woods, long tenon and preferably a solid top. But most
importantly its got to sound good and have mojo.

So what MIJ is nearest to the 59 specs? An EGF1200 would be good but they've got laminated tops. An EGF1800 would probably be ideal, but practically what's the chances of getting hold of one? how about a special order ObG with a solid top? I'm not so familiar with the older higher end tokais, but again, what's the chances of getting hold of an LS-200 or something? I've got a mid 80s burny supergrade that I like, What are the specs of their highest spec RLG150? And then there's the R9, obviously there's the name and they've got all the resources to make an accurate replica. How do the prices for older R9s compare to the high end MIJ stuff, what are the good years and would it make more sense to source a good R9 than a high end MIJ.

....Or would an EGF1200 represent best value for money and just ignore the fact that its got a laminated top?

I think that if we were comparing a standard to a good MIJ it would be a fairly easy decision in the MIJ favor, but I am intrigued by the comparisons to a custom shop Lester.

Thanks for any opinions

Tony

greco EGF-1800 ..no chance...reborn LS-200 ..no chance...the LS-120's are not very different from a reborn 200 ..except in rarity value...

all the tokai's do not have a long tenon ..not that this matters as much or equal to the fact that the R9 has a truss rod condom...the best specced MIJ to a 59 gibbo is either a solid top long tenon 1 piece back ObG..(super scarce) , or a tokai LS-120 no long tenon, or an EGF-1200 (lam top), or an early navigator..long tenon usually 1 piece back solid top)..

if you want a 59 exact copy ..get a luthier to build you one...but unless he has old wood sources, it will still be lacking in specs...

all in all the lack of long tenon,..(tokais) the 2 piece back..(most OBG's) or a laminated top, (super reals)...will make no audible difference to the overall tone of a superbly crafted, carefully built guitar, ...

I have owned over 30 R8's and R9's, and some have been as good as my tokai LS-120's greco EGF 1200's and some OBG's and navigators... however some have been utter crap in comparison...generally in my view a high spec MIJ will be equal or better than a gibson historic, however there are obviously exceptions to this ..ie a great historic will always be better than a crap MIJ...but GENERALLY I prefer old well made guitars to modern high production model names....

I have one historic left ...an amazing 58 reissue, which is a stunning guitar...but ...I have at least 10 MIJ high end, which, in my view are better.... but then to be fair I do have over 100 high end MIJ ...lol...including an EGF-1800 and a reborn-200...both of which spank the historic...

tony ..if you want a long involved discussion on this ...pm me for my tel no and we can talk pro's and cons for an hour or 2....

Hi,

What about the Navigators LPs? Aren't they up there with the other high-end MIJs?

-- Bill

the early navigators are as good as anything I have ...
I did mention them above..

the new ones are very high spec for a modern guitar ..equal to historics and highest tokai's..I do prefer the early ones though..they are something special..just not so well known..there were so few made in comparison to greco and tokai and ObG's

EGF-1800 and LS-200 do come up on rare occassions but you`ll have to be willing to pay thousands for them like at least one of our members here. Rare, yes but not an impossible dream.

Hey villager, what is a truss rod condom? :-?

a rubber sheath that covers the whole truss rod, used to stop the glue in manufacturing from binding the rod...never used in the 59 LP's or in any MIJ to my knowledge..

! How does that affect things? Does the rubber deteriorate over time?

well instead of metal and wood resonating, you have metal and rubber and wood, the theory is that it dampens the resonance somewhat..

its also not like a 59 LP which the historic is trying to copy..

And has the rubber been known to deteoriate in the LP? Surely this eventually would glue up more than a non condomed instrument!

Hey I know 3 chords now!

i dont know..

Thanks anyway for the info.
Congrats on the 1000th post! I hope you qualify for a new title now!

heh thanks ...god is it that many ....i do go on sometimes...

Villager wrote ...

the early navigators are as good as anything I have ...
I did mention them above..

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. My mistake. I love the idea of the Navigators, but have only ever seen the ones on the espguitars.co.jp website. Guitarsjapan I think had one. They look awesome, but out of my price range.

Do you happen to know what makes the 580 so special over the 380? Are those pickups THAT good? I think they're custom labs or something. Are they worth 200000 yen?

-- Bill

i mean the early 1980's navigators ..not the modern ones..although they are v nice too...


...the 580 is superflamed...

Hey, Thanks for the replies, I was thinking it might sit here for a while and get ignored.
Villager, Your reply was similar to what I was expecting. I'm not so much after a '59 exact replica but am after that vibe and general specification level, so compromises on some features is likely, plus budget is unlikely to be unlimited so value for money will play a part. I'm aware that tokai utilise a different neck pocket arrangement than 'long', though probably equally as good. I've never heard of the rubber sheath on historics though, interesting, my thought is I wouldn't exactly mind the truss rod getting 'glued into' the neck, as it would vibrate as a whole piece then. I have a cheap guitar where the truss rod is free inside and buzzes sympathetically.
I've not really looked into any navigators, I shall have to include them in my research too now. BTW, I've looked at the 'others' page on your site and that handbuilt one is probably the kind of thing we're talking about, do you get many through like that

I knew you had an EGF1800 and LS200 so was interested by your opinion, unfortunately, I thought I might be onto a bit of a no-hoper with those ones. I am interested to hear that some of the high end production MIJ are equal to the 'custom shop' historics, I was thinking it might only be the handbuilt MIJ that were.

Aren't the R9s and R8s the same anyway only with a different level of flame? with the R8s being cheaper? Maybe I should be thinking R8 more for value for money. I do realise that the historics are variable so getting a good one would be hit and miss, unless you can find a dealer you can trust to source you one.

I agree with your liking older guitars to newer ones, gives them time to wear in a bit. that's why I would be thinking of mid 90s historics anyway.

So looks like there's several MIJ that would fit the bill then, I guess its going to be a case of the right one turning up at the right time.

Thanks for your offer for a chat, but like i said, its a bit theoretical at the moment, I just want to start getting things sorted in my head so that I'm well armed and can start researching.....leave it for another time once I've got the money (maybe in a few years time!) at the moment I've got a ?4.5k bill for my new bathroom to think about

......Oh, and i'm getting more familiar with the RS-90, haven't had chance to play it out at volume yet though

detroitace said:

Villager wrote ...

the early navigators are as good as anything I have ...
I did mention them above..

Click to expand...

Yes, indeed. My mistake. I love the idea of the Navigators, but have only ever seen the ones on the espguitars.co.jp website. Guitarsjapan I think had one. They look awesome, but out of my price range.

Do you happen to know what makes the 580 so special over the 380? Are those pickups THAT good? I think they're custom labs or something. Are they worth 200000 yen?

-- Bill

Click to expand...

good question and I don`t know. yes...they call em ESP Custom Lab p`ups and they list them at 23,100 yen each at the back of the catalog. Interesting that the don`t try to dazzle with a long list of As after they mention the flame top of the 580 model so the difference in price must be because of the flame top and one thing I`ve noticed about Japan...seems anything thats priced too low isn`t worth owning, I`ve seen guys list guitars on Yahoo Japan at a certain price, not sell and relist at a higher price...and somebody buys. People in this city love walking around downtown with their Mitsukoshi bags... the very high end departmant store chain in Japan just let`s everybody know they can afford to shop there...is the 580 model flame top worth 200,ooo yen more ? ... not to me but to the natives, it`s a status thing.
Next time an LS-200 shows up on the web over here, I`ll let you know.