Edwards/Navigater Questions...

Discussion area for other MIJ Guitars

Moderator: ned

TSL
Guitar God
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:19 pm

Edwards/Navigater Questions...

Post by TSL » Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:05 pm

Really enjoying hearing about the Edwards brand here. At first I dismissed them to be honest, but clearly that is a mistake. I didn't realize they were ESPs.

The FINEST Les Paul style guitar I EVER played (and I bought my first LP in 1977) was just a few years ago in a local store. Said "Gibson", looked & played like one. Played it, fell in love, asked why the price was so reasonable, and was told in a hushed tone "It's Japanese, -I think it's an ESP, the original owner changed the headstock logo, but there is no Gib serial number, look again". Nonetheless, I went back days later for it, but it was gone. I now suspect it was either an Edwards or a Navigater.

Checked the ESP website, a bit confusing, Original or Laquer series and all. I could be interested in one though. Seems the long tenon is available even in mid price models. I could probably live with a laminate (real wood) top. Fret edge binding isn't an actual must (though perferred). More concerned with one piece body, quality woods, nitro, and nice flame top. Electronics and hardware don't matter to me.

What should I be looking at (the Page one looks cool, but I'd rather beat it up myself)?
What models should I avoid?
Any Strat models that are good as well (I like the original '57 style Strats, V neck, maple board, etc)?
Are the Navigaters better than the Edwards?
Thanks for any info.

EunosFD
Sus4add11
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:48 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Post by EunosFD » Sun Sep 10, 2006 11:03 pm

The Navigator LP's have fret edge binding from what I understand and are all-lacquer finish whereas the Edwards LT's ("Lacquer Taste") are a poly base with a lacquer top finish. I have one of the Page models and it feels just like an all-nitro finished guitar so I have no beef there. The Navigator line is essentially ESP's top tier brand (not counting their Custom Shop) and the prices I've seen for them are in line with a Gibson LP Standard. I nearly bought a used Navigator from Ishibashi's U-Box, but came to find out it had a headstock repair so I bought the Edwards Page instead. I'm way more than happy with it so I don't mind that it's a lower line. Heck, construction-wise they're nearly the same as the Navigator so saving a few bucks was worth it to me. However, the Navigators most likely use very high grade wood and have more personal attention to detail which is why they cost more. Either way I don't think you can go wrong. Now I'm hoping they decide to do a relic'd goldtop LP (with P-90's preferably) or a relic'd LP Custom (not counting the Les Chang model; although it's damn cool).
-Big Ben

tudor
Guitar God
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:02 pm
Location: AC - Germany

Post by tudor » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:34 am

TSL,

I'm just working on a website just for the Edwards/Navi brand ...

I own a 90LTS, a phantastic guitar (not because I want to justify this purchase! :wink: ).

You can't go wrong, as Eunos already mentioned, but if you're looking for fret-edge-binding and better wood, the Navigators are the ones for you - save money! 8)

Check:
http://search.ebay.de/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrpp ... FSQ3aMESOI

Roger
Image

TSL
Guitar God
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:19 pm

Post by TSL » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:36 pm

So, basically the Edwards are using cheaper woods, and a minimum of laquer. That explains the less than $700 price. One piece back though???

The Navigators seem more comparable to high quality Tokai, Gibson Historic, etc. I did at first think the Navigators prices were a misprint. $2700 for an LP with nice wood and nitro, PLUS shipping and import duty, I can buy Gibs, decent ones, all day long for that.

I could really go for something more in between. I never post my collection here as it changes constantly. I'm a player, not a true collector, but always looking for something with compromises I can overlook, and save a few dollars in the process...subsequently, my guitars revolve in and out often. Only the Strat my wife bought me 16+ yeras ago has escaped resale...

tudor
Guitar God
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:02 pm
Location: AC - Germany

Post by tudor » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:46 pm

Yes, it has a 1p Mahogany back ...

You're right concerning the choice of the woods ... but the craftmanship is brilliant and the "return on invest" (:wink:), the joy of playing at a reasonable price means that my decision was right !!

I'm not about to spend thousands of $$$s for something that I can get for a lower price ... and my guitars give me the sound and the joy of playing what I was looking for !!
...and I have to confess: I'm sure not to play better just by purchasing a Navi or Gibbo or whatever !!! 8) 8)

Roger
Image

sneakyjapan
Guitar God
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 9:56 pm

Post by sneakyjapan » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:13 pm

I own 2 of the Edwards featuring the Duncan p`ups...one is two piece...an early model, and the other is one piece. The early one is also a gloss finish. Edwards have been around for much longer than the Duncan line too and before they went with those p`ups they were in many cases extremely average guitars but the move t use Duncans was brilliant, made them so much more desireable, though less so over here than abroad it seems...I got both mine used and got em cheap. Some new ones can be had for 66,000 now while other models cost well over 100,000 yen and thats used Gibson range.
The Navigators that I`ve seen over here were outstanding guitars and are very expensive even used.

detroitace
Guitar God
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:42 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by detroitace » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:42 pm

You're right concerning the choice of the woods
and
So, basically the Edwards are using cheaper woods,
What's 'cheap' about the woods? Can someone enlighten me, please?

I have two Edwards: blue quilt that I can see is 1-piece back and black custom w/ P90s but I can't see it to confirm it's a 1-piece back.

They are at the top of my collection, regardless of the woods, but I'd like to know what's 'inferior' about their woods.

Thanks!
Bill[/quote]

tudor
Guitar God
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:02 pm
Location: AC - Germany

Post by tudor » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:09 pm

Bill,

my 90LTS has got a 1p mahogany back ...

... a thin veneer top ( 0,5cm ) - the flames are beautiful.

But beneath that is a solid maple layer ( 1,0cm) or maple cap - do you think they have used selected woods for that - just to hide it?? Never ! 8)


Roger
Image

joukov
Guitar God
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by joukov » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:35 pm

The wood used in your guitar might not be as old as in more expensive guitars.
http://www.wayneguitars.com/nwwd/factorytour.htm

The wood used in your guitar might not be chosen especially for it's excellent sound as the wood used for a more expensive guitar.
http://www.classicalandflamencoguitars. ... .htm#Sound

The wood used in your guitar might not have AAAA/AAAAA flame or truly fantastic quilt or be as exotic and/or rare as the wood used for a more expensive guitar.
http://www.driskillguitars.com/sunken%2 ... diablo.htm


Only a few reasons why the wood used in Edwards might be cheaper than the wood used in Navigators. :D

EunosFD
Sus4add11
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:48 pm
Location: Maryland, USA

Post by EunosFD » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:30 pm

Just what joukov said. The Edwards woods may be nice, solid pieces of wood, but they're not going to be the cream of the crop. It takes a builder time to inspect and select top quality woods which usually are hard to come by. Honduras mahogany is what most Gibby LP's are made from (at least the Standards on up; probably also LP copies too), but it's hard to come by and finding older, dried woods is very difficult. It doesn't mean that the woods in guitars like the Edwards LP's is bad, but that it may not be as high of a grade as a high end guitar like a Navigator or Historic LP. My Edwards is just a hair over 8lbs so it's light, great grain pattern on the one piece back and neck, and it rings like a bell just as a great LP should so I have no complaints whatsoever.
-Big Ben

detroitace
Guitar God
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:42 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by detroitace » Fri Sep 15, 2006 3:19 am

Thanks, guys.

But I'm not reading anybody here say they've confirmed that the woods are of inferior quality. I'm just reading what I already know ... that it wouldn't make sense to use high quality, hand-selected woods on a guitar that is so inexpensive. It sounds like unless you were there during the building process, you've no idea what was used, other than a guess based upon the grain, and sound maybe.

By comparison, however, are you saying that Tokia, Greco, Burny, all use/used high quality woods in their guitars? How can you tell?


Thanks!
-- Bill

sneakyjapan
Guitar God
Posts: 1871
Joined: Mon May 12, 2003 9:56 pm

Post by sneakyjapan » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:03 am

well my Edwards ain`t full of knots or worm eaten if thats what you`re after. In Japan inferior wood usually means more pieces in the body. Some say basswood or poplar are inferior but then again, others love them so hard to say really, down to personal taste and tonal requirements . My guess...the Duncan Edwards line aren`t Honduras mahogany, lots of Japanese builders have switched to African mahogany and by no means are they all low priced guitars, I think it`s more a question of availability. By the way...I own a F/USA custom shop team built strat and it appears to have a knot poking through the finish...now THATS inferior wood, or at the very least not custom shop quality. Should be noted that none...and I own quite a few...of my MIJs have knots in the bodies... my collection goes back to the mid 70s and my 1960s Yamaha Dynamic acoustics are all solid wood and flawless not to mention great sounding.
No inferior wood in any of my MIJs from several builders. The Grassroots and Progauge line also made by ESP certainly have inferior hardware and are made from more pieces of wood but all the Duncan Edwards that I have seen never left me with the feeling of being inferior in any way, in fact I wonder how they can make a profit on them selling for the prices they go for. I had heard a story from a member here who was told by the staff at the local Big Boss...the ESP chain shops...that the Edwards were cut and prepped in China then sent to Japan for assembly, so I asked the guys at another shop if that was true...they called ESP and were told that the Duncan Edwards are indeed made completely in Japan... not sure if the builders are inferior though. I`d wager their best luthiers work on the custom ordered guitars while others make the Edwards...but thats just a guess. Buy a used Edwards, if you feel it doesn`t meet your standards you can always sell it for the same money you got it for.

joukov
Guitar God
Posts: 280
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:50 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Post by joukov » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:43 am

Bill, your quess is as good as mine.

What is your point by asking these questions?
Has someone said that your Edwards are rubbish or that they were made of left over wood? :o

detroitace
Guitar God
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:42 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Post by detroitace » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 am

Thank you Sneakyjapan for your thoughtful answer. For the record, I might have used the term 'middle-grade, multi-piece' to describe the wood used in the Edwards. 'Inferior' and 'cheap' are too pejorative.

BTW, I have 2 Diodati's LP-style that are made from multi-piece Honduras mahogany. They are heavier and do sound different from the Edwards, but it's hard to separate the pickups from the wood by ear.

Thanks!
Bill

marcusnieman
Guitar God
Posts: 9055
Joined: Thu May 22, 2003 8:48 pm
Location: Dallas, Texas

Post by marcusnieman » Fri Sep 15, 2006 7:50 am

This is getting way to technical for me..... why all of the scientific dissection of the wood?

I'm much more concerned about how it plays and sounds. All I know is that my Edwards Jimmy Page is one of - if not the best - sounding Les Pauls in my stable (I have a total of 5 including an LS60 Reborn and a 70's Gibson standard LP). It is responsive, incredible attention to detail, light weight and sounds amazing - that's all I care about. I got what I paid for and then some.

Post Reply