Very early Navigators (late 70s): just midrange?

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BrazenPicker

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I've noticed that the very early strats (Esparto series) and les pauls from Navigator don't seem to sell for that much, usually for well below 1000 USD. Like earlier this week I was watching this Navigator les paul being offered on Yahoo auctions for 50,000 yen. No one bought it so the auction expired, then it got relisted at 40,000 and a day later it was gone. The headstock had been broken (and beautifully repaired, it was hard to see the breakline) so that explained a lot, but still. (As an aside, from what I read on forums online, a broken headstock isn't that big of a deal. If it's professionally repaired the bond will be stronger than ever and the tone of the guitar not perceptibly affected.) It was a beautiful tobaccoburst guitar with that patina that only 30+ years can give.

Then recently I came across a Navigator Esparto strat copy in a second hand shop here in Singapore for around 600 USD.

Today, Navigator competes with the upper range of Tokai, so it seems a bit inconsistent that the early models sell for far less than vintage Tokais and Grecos. Can I conclude then that the early Navigators weren't that special?

Before owners of old Navigator guitars come out in full force telling me their guitar totally smokes their buddy's historic, let me phrase this more carefully: How was Navigator positioned as a guitar manufacturer in the late seventies/early eighties? Was it just a midrange brand then, and has it since moved upscale? In terms of pricing, would a Navigator Les Paul have been more like a Tokai LS-50 or an LS-120 at the time? Certainly today's second hand prices seem to reflect the latter. Or am I wrong and is the market just overlooking these?
 
Forum member DaveWW had a late '70's??? mid-range Navigator Les Paul, styled like a norlin era LP with headstock volute. It's one of the best Les Pauls I've ever played!
 
They get marked down for not being vintage accurate. Many had veneer tops, high neck angles, some had two/three piece backs, and some were pretty heavy.

None of this is much of a surprise really, because when they started copying LPs in the 70s there wasn't such a focus on re-creating the 50s LP.

Spec wise and possibly build wise, the newer Navs are about as good as it gets, but tone wise I bet many of the older ones sound good.

There is an older one on Yahoo Japan that has been listed for months at 198k yen, so there is the odd person that thinks they're worth big bucks.
 
JohnA said:
Forum member DaveWW had a late '70's??? mid-range Navigator Les Paul, styled like a norlin era LP with headstock volute. It's one of the best Les Pauls I've ever played!

Still got it :D and it's a plain top, norlin headstock, 2 piece back & certainly not pancake etc. I know it's a strat that the OP referred too but I certainly would part with it for $1,000.

IMG_0297.jpg


IMG_0384.jpg
 
Yep :D planning on bringing:

LP Navigator (with Tokai Mk2 pickups)
Bachus BTE-67 BG Tele
Tokai ST55 Springy - (with Texas Loco pickups)
Epiphone Matsumoku Riviera (with Dimarzio & Schaller pickups - coil tapped)
Bacchus Gold Top LP - BLS95 P90

....as long as they'll fit in the car.

Dave
 
Yes I saw that other thread (where you just bought it), Dave. Gorgeous guitar.

If the big markdown is just about "historic correctness" then I'll definitely look at these. I couldn't care less, as long as it sounds, looks and plays good.
 
Thanks. I'm not sure the prices for these are much lower myself in reality and it'll pretty much depend on the model. Have a look at forum member villagers site http://www.japanguitars.co.uk/page%207%20Other%20Brands.html as it'll give you a pretty good idea across the different brands. I think all guitars tend to be a little bit cheaper in the US because of the high import taxes & duty we pay in Europe.

Ref. correctness some people really hate the large norlin era headstock but others love them and say they sustain for days.........

Dave
 
I'm regretting now not picking up that Navigator LP for 40,000 Yen earlier this week. It was on Yahoo Auctions. I was having a holiday break and I've been living there (and Digimart) the past week. 8)

Ah well, there's always a new one to come along.

By the way, I signed up with Rinkya a couple of weeks ago and I'm really impressed with their customer service. I always get a prompt, friendly and detailed reply, they even translated 2 auctions for me. By the time I'll pull the trigger I won't begrudge them their fees.
 
I'm sure they'll kill this link before long but while it lasts, here's the guitar i was talking about. Went for 40,000 Yen.

http://page9.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k128737804

Looks like a one-piece back to me, and it has Seymour Duncan pickups. Some nice mineral streaks in the top also.
 
If you look at the question it's from the same guy who made the one bid asking to end the auction early. Seller said he would when he'd received confirmation of the price. So I think it's likely the auction ended early for an agreed outside deal. I'd like to have better pic's of the full headstock front and neck repair, back innards etc before bidding but sometimes you do have to take a risk.
 
Yes I agree. The seller didn't do himself any favors with these photos. Heather from Rinkya sent me a detailed translation and it does say that there is "Navigator" on the headstock. There's also these 2 little toggle switches there that wouldn't have helped resale value. Anyway, I'm not too heartbroken about losing it. I'll just take my time looking out for another project guitar.
 
Hello,
I'm new to this forum, living in France and got 2 jv guitars.

One of them is a very early Esparto, actually 1975 if I believe the date engraved in the neck. From what I know this is the first year ESP has build guitars.

I've read that early navigator are not so good, but this esparto is the best buy I've made. If I remember well, it was around 400$, it was dirty, I had to change the nut and the frets, but this is a really good guitar and its sound is great.
All the Espartos I've seen on the net are a little different from this one (this is a one piece body, not the others for example), so I don't know if it reflects the average quality of Navigator Espartos but this is one of my favorite guitars.
 
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/142040289

Another really cheap one. Does any of the gathered intelligentsia know anything about this guitar? Approximate production year, woods used, etc.? Again, I'm tempted. But then, tempting me isn't very hard.
 
BrazenPicker said:
http://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/142040289

Another really cheap one. Does any of the gathered intelligentsia know anything about this guitar? Approximate production year, woods used, etc.? Again, I'm tempted. But then, tempting me isn't very hard.

Nice.... gold hardware? Interesting....
 
Mick51 said:
Mix and match knobs, I see. The neck joint can be touchy on SG's. Personally, I would have to look at an SG more closely than an LP.

+1, the '61 type joint in particular (later one is not as bad).

Still, I bought one from Japan (a Bacchus 64 type) and it travelled fine.
 
BrazenPicker said:
What do you mean by touchy? That it might break in transport?

Yes, there isn't a lot of wood there, compared to LPs. They are quite prone to neck breakage or cracking.

That said, I have had - for more years than I care to say - a 1966 Gibson with the Maestro. It's been a very nice little puppy.
 
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