1959 Les paul

Area for Tokai's older than 1985

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bruno
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Post by bruno » Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:57 pm

exactly my point, I don't believe a new tokai (especially the ones above model 125, even though the rest are also very good) isn't better than an old one (right now in the present), and further more, I don't see why in the future it won't be as good or even better than an old one.

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:09 pm

Why new guitars will not sound the same in 30 years as 30 year old guitars sound now....

1. because the new wood used now is farmed mahogony, harvested young, not old growth mahogony that was used in the 50's -late 80's

2. because the wood is now kiln dried to remove excess moisture, and this is done quickly, it used to be air dried for a few years...


of course if you can get a luthier to build you a new guitar out of old wood...such as the mahogony used in old buildings for church pews countertops in old banks etc ..then there is no difference...but wood used for guitars by large manufacturers now is NOT the same as wood used 30 years ago...

bruno
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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:49 pm

yeah but I mean the difference between old and new tokais when it comes to wood is not as big as the difference between a 50's guitar... so that is a little out of context, as far as tokais go... :wink:

I would bet with you a new tokai will sound as good as any old tokai sounds right now in 30 years, but thenit would take a long time for you to pay that bet wouldn't it? :wink:

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:51 pm

no ..50's guitar ..see above...tokais from 1978-1981..same wood...

new tokais...different wood ..

not out of context at all....

bruno
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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:31 pm

I believe it is yet to be proven that reborns and so on used honduran mahogany... and I also believe most of that is hype. But then again, that's just me.

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:37 pm

I didnt say they did....i said the farming meathod and drying method for old mahogony whether honduran or not was different to modern wood growing and prep....


but sure as hell some had braz boards....

Image

bruno
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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:50 pm

ah so the woods are the same but the farming methods are not?

And this info was suplied by tokai?

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:56 pm

mahogony is mahogony...same wood ...but the way its commercially grown now, and harvested early,...(small growth rings), and the way it is dried now, is not the same as the way the old wood was harvested and dried after it had been allowed to reach its maturity as a tree...

this is obviously not from from tokai..its common knowledge in the wood buying and guitar building industries...

are you suggesting that tokai uses old growth, fully mature, air dried mahogony for its new guitars??? lol...no commercial guitar builders use old growth mahogony....its almost impossible to get in the required quantities for that purpose...you can still buy it in small quantities ...but its very expensive compared with newer farmed mahogony...

bruno
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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:03 pm

no, I'm not sugesting that, at least I don't recall saying that...

I think however your old wood theory is based on assumptions, rather than realiable info.

But I'll allow to have the final word on this topic because I'm not here to try to convince anyone, of my opinion, in 30 years, we'll know. Even because new tokais sound as great as old ones already.

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:09 pm

think what you like m8 ...do some reading about it...ask some luthiers..look at the growth rings on new and old tokai's...

how many old tokais have you got exactly? and how many new ones?

or more to the point ..how long have you spent playing and comparing, new and old tokais head to head?

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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:20 pm

now we pass to question fase...

as of now I own one tokai, and intend to one more only... more than 3 guitars is too much maintenance, besides also like fender type guitars. So only one tokai for me and two very soon.Right now it its a new one. The next will be too...Luckly I have been able to compare both new and old 80-82 tokais. We had a dealer in portugal who had them in the early eighties, so some people still own them.

Ive been playing them for quite some time now... Im not in the business of comparing them, I usually prefer to play them :wink:

I tend to know how they sound, I also tend to know when rumors about this or that being better are spread, and when I get a chance to try those things out I do... My opinion like I told you, is there is nothing making an old tokai better than a new one, not even the farm grown wood tale...sorry m8

but I mean, never let the truth get in a way of a good story, if you like them better, and sell them better, more power to you.

Oh and by the way Ive met some nice people who are also in the guitar business, who are also relatively knowledgable of tokais, they sure seem to think the new ones are just as good, is that a valid point? Well I think it is as good as any.

cheers
Last edited by bruno on Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

villager
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Post by villager » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:23 pm

as i said ...

you have nothing to contribute....

you have no extensive knowledge ...

someone i know ...i used to play some .. in the 80's....etc etc...

fact..you have one new tokai...not too much to compare there is there...

new tokais are good guitars ..especially the 320 and the new 380...but ...in my opinion ...they do not sound the same as the older tokais...

better /worse....its an individuals opinion...my opinion is old ones sound better to me...

i tend to stick to facts ...unlike you..

bruno
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Post by bruno » Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:33 pm

What I think is youre not confortable with other peoples opinions...

Ive tried several of these "lovely old grown wood guitars" and the truth is they rate the same as new tokais (theyre great guitars yes, but just as easily so is a new tokai, especially anything above a ls-135).

Ive seen your facts, and understand your contribute, I also understand why it is so appealing to you to feed these old tales.

So if you have your opinion formed on your own "facts" you better start respecting other people opinions and their own facts. Youve tested old against new, Ive tested old against new, lots of people here have,some prefer old, some prefer new.

Deal with it, dont impose it on other people, with tales of the glory days.

Also you should know I visit the forum because I like tokai guitars and to discuss about them, I do it for pleasure, so my contribute and opinion is based on my own experience with these guitars, not biased opinions.

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Post by 10th gear » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:11 pm

Hi All, Quite the lively discussion going on. Rossi... I had a 67 Sunburst Tele when I was 11, and honestly I get more out of my Peavey Preditor (late 80's model) than I can remember getting out of the Tele.
And like you, I paid $125.00 American, sold it to my uncle for around $100. about 2 yrs later like I had my head in my a-- or something, :cry: but anyway. I'm in agreement with the way the woods are farmed commercially now due to the demand, as virtually all cut wood is kiln dried now for faster production purposes. Old v. New? It really matters on the individual and the music tone they desire right?
And as I always say my fellow gitarpickers...

KEEP ON ROCKIN ON 8)
Keep On Rockin On...

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Post by spikeymikey » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:10 am

I remember speaking to Clive Brown some years ago about woods. He does amazingly authentic re-fin's and has worked on and owns many vintage guitars including several uh, 'Burst's'(I'm going off that term). We talked mainly about LP Juniors because I had a few at the time and expressed the desire to get a Standard that would play and feel something like my Juniors. He told me to get a luthier to build something close or to try and find an early Tokai Les Paul. He said that ".....all that early Japanese stuff is pretty damn good, JV series Squire, Tokai, Fernandes.....the Japanese makers got hold of a supply of very good wood back in the late '70's". He did'nt mention Honduras mahogany etc. but he said it was good wood, properly dried and cured and that it makes a difference.

I feel a lot of the newer guitars are let down by the wood used, especially some fingerboards. I've seen some mid price PRS's recently with fretboards resembling Balsa wood.

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