Honduras Mahogany - holy grail or rock'n'roll swindle?

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declan

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Honduras mahogany is portrayed as the holy grail of tonewoods throughout the guitar industry, but is this because of its tonal qualities, rarity value or just a great big marketing swindle?.

Ive read where old tree stumps are reportedly being harvested now as supposedly Brazil has banned falling any new wood. These guys however believe it is readily available at moderate cost from other parts of Central America.
http://www.woodzone.com/woods/mahogany.htm

Heres another guy who believes that African Mahogany is best and if you do a little research he is not alone either.
http://www.edromanguitars.com/wood/honduras_mah.htm

Could it be that they are all right ?
 
BTW, my opinion is that this wood is hyped out of proportion and the real grail of tonewood is how that wood is selected in the first place, regardless of whether its African, Brazilian or whatever...
 
Yes declan, this is possible.

I remember me back in the 60/70ies. Each new built house in Germany were equipped with window frames made from rosewood, mahogany and limba(Korina) and other nowadays rare Brazilian woods.
These windows were even cheaper as made from an ordinary German wood.
 
declan,

maybe you're right with the assumption that it is a "hype" around the Honduras mahogany ...

I must confess: I don't know what kind of mahogany is on my guitars ('85 Tokai LS150/Edwards LP) and for me it doesn't matter !!!

I think, since the discussion of the rescue of the rain forests began ( it is entitled, no doubt), the price for the exotic woods raised up to the stars ... only the high end guitars deserved to be built of that rare materials since then.

So, it may cause a difference in tone and weight, but - except the weight that I can feel - I wouldn't be able to hear a difference - I'm sure!

Roger
 
As an ex-cabinet maker, I can say that Honduras & South American Mahogany is the nicest timber to work with, it has nice consistent grain & texture and if you cherry pick the best it is nice & light. A lot of far eastern Red Hardwoods are passed off as Mahogany now, but are not true Mahogany. I do think though that many sellers "claim" that the guitars are made of South American Mahogany, but are not.
 
I owned guitars with Honduras Mahogany and with African Mahogany and I feel Honduras more responsive and with a larger sustain,as fas as better looking.I just prefer it.
But it can be because because a different gade timber maybe, I don?t know timber age and way of selection from the manufacturer.
 
luis said:
I don?t know timber age and way of selection from the manufacturer.

This is the one variable most of know little about and possibly the one that has a greater impact on the final tone along with quality construction technique.

I speculate that there have probably been some exceptional guitars made with Honduras Mahogony and some rubbish ones as well.

It just seems that the two words "Honduras Mahogany" could be doubling the price of some guitars, if rumour, hype, and speculation are driving demand and price.

Bobtastik, can you tell us whether the wood is still available at a moderate price like the link in my first post suggests.

If this is the case then the manufacturers are swindling us. If it is truly an expensive wood, and we are expecting a proportionate increase in tonal quality then I think we may be swindling ourselves. If its just for the rarity factor then no harm done.

If I owned a guitar factory :lol: Id be building a few to find out, and if the honduras mahogany really gave a tonal quality unequalled by others i would be publishing the results
 
The weight of the wood depends on how much minerals there are in the wood and how fast tree grows. Mahogany has silicon quartz (SQ) in it and the amount of it might change the weight a lot (tens of percents).

What I have read and understood is that African mahogany has more SQ and is heavier than for example the old Honduran mahogany. Nowadays trees are grown faster and that has also some influence on the weight. Trees used are not left to grow hundreds of years in the jungle anymore.

Moisture must also be considered in the weight but that is quite easily controlled.

That makes some difference in the price too. It's not all hype.

Some guitar makers use mahogany that has sunken to bottom of the rivers and that way been preserved for a long time. That wood is expensive!
 
many if not all Japanese mass producers have switched from Honduras to African over the last few years mainly to availability which leads to cost. Not sure if it`s hype... a word that gets a lot of use on guitar web sites... or due to the fact that it has gotten hard, perhaps impossible to get more of so builders have to use their supplies sparingly...rarer so it costs more...no great mystery.
Can my ears hear the difference between African or Honduras...I`d wager not...but I can certainly see a difference.
 
I have a 2000 History Telecaster made from ''Timeless Timber'', (as referred to by Joukov above)..it was very expensive, and it sounds brilliant, but my 1982 Fender JV TL52-95 tele is just a great sounding...
both are pretty rare guitars, and I dont know what wood Fender japan were using in 1982/83...but there were some fantastic guitars produced by them at than time..to me it sounds just as good as the 300 yr old wood in the History..
 
I thought they used the Timeless Timber for the necks only? Thats how they were advertised. That was timber that had sunk of the bottom of the Great Lakes so I don`t think we have much mahogany in Canada. This comes from the advertising they had in the Japanese guitar magazines when they first introduced the line of guitars.
 
sneakyjapan said:
I thought they used the Timeless Timber for the necks only? Thats how they were advertised. That was timber that had sunk of the bottom of the Great Lakes so I don`t think we have much mahogany in Canada. This comes from the advertising they had in the Japanese guitar magazines when they first introduced the line of guitars.


About a year or two ago there were several guitars that were made from that wood in vintage guitar magazine. I believe it was in an ad for the guitar manufacturer.
 
This discussion reminds me of the speaker magnet debate: ceramic or Alnico. Supposedly, alnico sounds better with humbuckers while ceramic sounds great with single coils. But then many Marshalls are shipped with ceramics and Fender has used tons of alnico speakers. and, from what I've read from people who know a great deal more than I do, there is no discernible difference to the human ear. The only difference is that alnico is a nuch more expensive material to produce than ceramic. But there are legions of players who swear they can tell the difference. I wonder.

The best sounding Strat I own is a complete muttcaster Frankenstein with a heavy, 20-year-old Japanese Squier body and a 5-year-old WD Products neck, and it weighs more than 8 1/2 pounds. But it has Van Zandt Blues pickups with the midboost mod by Dan Torres (www.torresengineering.com) and I think this has more to with its great sound than anything else. I have some guitars with nice wood in them, and part of me likes to believe they sound better, but that is probably my imagination.

I've also read that some of the original Les Pauls and Strats are duds, tonewise, even though they were made in the Golden Age. You can find the same thing today, although it seems to be getting worse. Go into a shop and play all the LPs they have, and one will probably jump out at you. And the same with Fender. They may not even be the most expensive models.

What I love about older Tokais is that most of them sound very good, and a few, outstanding, even in the cheaper models. I suspect that one could make a better sounding guitar with cheaper wood if the craftmanship were superior. I think that even though Tokais were/are made in a factory setting, these dedicated craftspeople find a way to do it right, because the Japanese have an unbelievably high work ethic, and they actually take pride in working for their company. In most manufactured products, the price of the materials used are less of a production cost than good skilled labor, and I suspect this shows up in guitar making.

A few years back, Taylor Guitars made an acoustic top out of old, scuffed up pinewood warehouse pallets and it supposedly sounded great. I've played a few Seagull acoustics made with inexpensive spruce and these sound fantastic.

I believe that wood (FWIW) is a factor in a guitar's total sound, but not a huge determinant. I also doubt any of these so-called experts could pass a blind ear test and hear a diff between Honduras and African mahogany, or Indian and Brazilian rosewood.

These claims, I think, for the most part, are just more hype to get buyers to pony up for what the seller claims is Brazilian, Honduras, etc., in order to maximize profit. I doubt that even half of the so-called Brazilian boards on eBay are actually from Brazil, just because they have a little color in them. The real good Brazilian, as seen on classic old Martins, has streaks of red and even green in it, not just a bit of tan mixed with dark brown. Granted, the authentic woods look beautiful and are lovely to work with, and the old Martins do have a gorgeous sound, but I think the fabled tone difference that many gush about is so much hooey.

Sorry for the rant, but I also believe that no matter what you play, you will sound exactly like yourself, Brazilian or Indian rosewood aside. :wink:
 
This discussion reminds me of the speaker magnet debate: ceramic or Alnico. Supposedly, alnico sounds better with humbuckers while ceramic sounds great with single coils. But then many Marshalls are shipped with ceramics and Fender has used tons of alnico speakers. and, from what I've read from people who know a great deal more than I do, there is no discernible difference to the human ear. The only difference is that alnico is a nuch more expensive material to produce than ceramic. But there are legions of players who swear they can tell the difference. I wonder.

The best sounding Strat I own is a complete muttcaster Frankenstein with a heavy, 20-year-old Japanese Squier body and a 5-year-old WD Products neck, and it weighs more than 8 1/2 pounds. But it has Van Zandt Blues pickups with the midboost mod by Dan Torres (www.torresengineering.com) and I think this has more to with its great sound than anything else. I have some guitars with nice wood in them, and part of me likes to believe they sound better, but that is probably my imagination.

I've also read that some of the original Les Pauls and Strats are duds, tonewise, even though they were made in the Golden Age. You can find the same thing today, although it seems to be getting worse. Go into a shop and play all the LPs they have, and one will probably jump out at you. And the same with Fender. They may not even be the most expensive models.

What I love about older Tokais is that most of them sound very good, and a few, outstanding, even in the cheaper models. I suspect that one could make a better sounding guitar with cheaper wood if the craftmanship were superior. I think that even though Tokais were/are made in a factory setting, these dedicated craftspeople find a way to do it right, because the Japanese have an unbelievably high work ethic, and they actually take pride in working for their company. In most manufactured products, the price of the materials used are less of a production cost than good skilled labor, and I suspect this shows up in guitar making.

A few years back, Taylor Guitars made an acoustic top out of old, scuffed up pinewood warehouse pallets and it supposedly sounded great. I've played a few Seagull acoustics made with inexpensive spruce and these sound fantastic.

I believe that wood (FWIW) is a factor in a guitar's total sound, but not a huge determinant. I also doubt any of these so-called experts could pass a blind ear test and hear a diff between Honduras and African mahogany, or Indian and Brazilian rosewood.

These claims, I think, for the most part, are just more hype to get buyers to pony up for what the seller claims is Brazilian, Honduras, etc., in order to maximize profit. I doubt that even half of the so-called Brazilian boards on eBay are actually from Brazil, just because they have a little color in them. The real good Brazilian, as seen on classic old Martins, has streaks of red and even green in it, not just a bit of tan mixed with dark brown. Granted, the authentic woods look beautiful and are lovely to work with, and the old Martins do have a gorgeous sound, but I think the fabled tone difference that many gush about is so much hooey.

Sorry for the rant, but I also believe that no matter what you play, you will sound exactly like yourself, Brazilian or Indian rosewood aside. :wink:
 
ooops! Not only was it long, but I sent it twice. :oops: Sorry. I shall repair to the music room and lash myself with worn-out Slinkys (don't ask me what guage) to make amends.

Steve
 
tokaigeezer said:
ooops! Not only was it long, but I sent it twice. :oops: Sorry. I shall repair to the music room and lash myself with worn-out Slinkys (don't ask me what guage) to make amends.
Or maybe simply delete the double posting (click on the X symbol on the right to the Edit button)? :wink:
 

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