When Did Tokai Stop Using the PCB in the Love Rock?

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Skybone

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Just wondering...

When did Tokai stop putting the PCB mounted electronics in the control cavity in Love Rock's? I've just bought another one that has an oval "60" sticker on the back of the headstock, with the serial No. starting "01*****", I'm guessing it's a 1980 model which is in fantastic condition for it's age.
 
As far as I know, they mostly came and still come with that PC board, only the higher models had/have the custom wiring with CTS pots and better caps. So your LS60 has this, too? Maybe someone changed it? By the way, "01..." would be 2001, and "00..." would be 1980 - if I'm not still sleeping, that is...
 
As far as I can say 2'001 LS70 came with vintage correct "point to point" electronics,so somewhere between late 80's-early 90?s in my guess.As far as there were some changes in Tokai electrics around '88(see catalogs) I would suggest that date(not sure but a intuition).
 
I should have mentioned that my '99 LS70F doesn't have a PCB, and neither did any of the other 2 Love Rock's I have owned (another 99 and an 01).

From what I can gather, it is a 1980, as I believe that the 80's guitars only used the last digit of the year as the first digit of the serial No. I'm going to restring it soon, so I'll be looking in the neck cavity for any other info in there.
 
Then this table would be wrong:

http://www.tokairegistry.com/tokai-info/tokai-gibson.html

I really don't know about the ol' PC board, but I was wrong with the oval sticker recently, too... :roll: Did you do a forum search, maybe this has been answered already?
 
Because Skybone wrote he has a "01..." which is only related to 2001. If he had a "00..." (which he doesn't, or maybe he mixed something up in his posting), it could be either a 1980 or a 2000 Gibson copy.
 
I understand. Thanks.

BTW, re date
1980 00xxxxx

maybe it can be changed in
1980 000xxxx

'cause all 1980ies models I ever saw, features three 000's

Any one else, like to confirm?
 
I can't, because I don't have one, as you know... ;) But another thing comes to my mind in regard of this 1980 vs. 2000 issue, because we had some Reborn Olds, Les Paul Reborns and Love Rocks all from 1980 lately, some of them in a very condition. :-? So any interested user should probably be especially careful with these models, because a faker might not even have to change the stamped serial number.
 
Over the years quite a few have turned up with the SN simply stamped in black ink (ie NOT impressed). So far all the inked numbers seem to begin 01, 10, or 11, ie the very years for which the confusion exists (see table & comments above). Until recently it was thought these inked numbers were all from guitars made in the late 1990's or 2000's, and possibly made outside the main Tokai factory (maybe in Korea). However, recently several of these guitars have been discovered with what appear to be early original features (eg double ring tuners & "Reborn" decal), and it now seems likely these are Japanese made Tokais dating from 1980-81.
Click to expand...

My new LR's serial No. begins "01", has double ring tuners, the pointy "bell" TRC, and the PCB in the control cavity. I'm guessing that it's a 1980. I'm sure that I have seen something somewhere that states the 80's Love Rock's have a 7 digit serial No. with a single digit year ID, and a 6 digit No. which would put my new one at 1980, which would also stand with the features the guitar has. Clear as mud? ;)

Thanks for the input guys.
 
Again, I have to be awkward!

On closer inspection, my new LS60 has an inked serial No., where my LS70 has a stamped serial No.

So far all the inked numbers seem to begin 01, 10, or 11, ie the very years for which the confusion exists.....

However, recently several of these guitars have been discovered with what appear to be early original features (eg double ring tuners & "Reborn" decal), and it now seems likely these are Japanese made Tokais dating from 1980-81.
Click to expand...

Looks like it's another original feature, inked serial No. guitar, which is in darn good nick for a 25 year old guitar! Cool. ;)
 
hi guys

sorry to be a sour-puss but I'm with Hans - i reacon the guitar is a 2001 and not a 1980.
A 1980 model would have a 000xxxx serial number, it would NOT say Love Rock - it would be either a LPRreborn or Reborn Old and would have a Gibson 'bell'TRC.
A 1981 model would start 100xxxx
I prefer to call the "Pointy bell' TRC as a 'Diamond' TRC [Part# L-665] as it stops confusion with the Gibson Bell TRC [Part# L-664]

regards
Peter Mac
 
Peter Mac said:
sorry to be a sour-puss but I'm with Hans - i reacon the guitar is a 2001 and not a 1980.
Click to expand...
The problem with Skybone's guitar is that it has an inked serial number (which he overlooked first), and as far as I know there have been examples of inked "01..." that were from 1980. At least the text on the main site says so, I believe it's Ian's summary of the related threads in this forum.

A 1980 model would have a 000xxxx serial number, it would NOT say Love Rock - it would be either a LPRreborn or Reborn Old and would have a Gibson 'bell'TRC.
Click to expand...
Are you sure about that 000xxxx issue? That would be a great help to identify real 1980 models against 2000 models, at least if they have impressed stamps. Togps also wrote recently that he's never seen 1980 models with only two leading zeros, always three. That information could be added to the main site then.

Concerning "no Love Rocks from 1980" we had some examples in the recent past which probably weren't fakes, so it seems that in this year there existed all three headstock variants: Les Paul Reborn, Reborn Old and Love Rock (probably only in the second half of 1980). Do you know the exact date when Tokai changed from Reborn to Love Rock? Did the "diamond shaped" truss rod cover only appear with Love Rocks, so both Reborn variants had the bigger bell shaped ones?

Anyhow, 1980 is a very problematic year for Les Paul copy identification, as everything seemed to have happened in that year, three different decal logos as well as impressed and inked serial numbers, furthermore the confusing "00..." numbering scheme.
 
According to the info on the Registry, this is a 1980 model. It's got the "Pointy Bell" TRC, it's got the twin ring tuners (with patina), it's got a PCB in the control cavity, it's also got the "Patent Applied For" stamped cream uncovered pickups, and last but not least, the inked serial No.

The main site also states in the Gibson Models Information page, it states that the LP Reborn went to 1979, the Reborn Old was 1980 only and that the Love Rock was from 1980 to present. It also states that the serial no's all have a 0 as the 2nd digit. The patina on the hardware certainly suggests age, even if the wear doesn't. Closet classic maybe?

However, on the Gibson Copy Information page, it states "So far all the inked numbers seem to begin 01, 10, or 11" and "and it now seems likely these are Japanese made Tokais dating from 1980-81." which seems to contradict what is said about serial No's on the Gibson Models Info page.

I have the impression that, like fellow Japanese manufacturer Ibanez, Tokai went through a period of major changes in both models and serial No's during the late 70's and early 80's, and the inked serial no. Love Rock's are proof of that change, and that the Reborn Old lasted into 1980 with the traditional stamped serial no, but by late 1980, the name was changed to Love Rock and the serial no's were modified to reflect this change. Hence the "01", "10" and "11" serial no's (late '80, early '81 and late '81 is my guess).

I'm sure it'll be debated for some time, but I do think it is a 1980 model, albeit a late 1980 model, similar to the LS60BS from the '81 catalogue.

81cat_p4.jpg
 
Skybone said:
However, on the Gibson Copy Information page, it states "So far all the inked numbers seem to begin 01, 10, or 11" and "and it now seems likely these are Japanese made Tokais dating from 1980-81." which seems to contradict what is said about serial No's on the Gibson Models Info page.
Click to expand...
Only if you forget to mention "inked" or "impressed" stamp... The Gibson Models page only refers to stamped numbers, not inked in my opinion. Although there is another problem with that page regarding Les Paul Reborns from 1980. We recently had a thread here with a such a model in black that didn't seem to be faked.
 
hi Hans

if we break the serial numbers down for early LP's, the 1st number is the year [ 9=79, 0=1980, 1=1981] until 1988 when the first 2 numbers were the year [ 89 = 1989, 90=1990, 91=1991]
Remember that 1979 models WERE NOT Love Rocks and 1990 models were.
So now look at production. Tokai LS serial numbers are sequential, which if we took 01xxxxx as a 1980 serial number would indicate that in 2 years, Tokai built 100,000 LS guitars - highly unlikely. At most they were averaging a couple of thousand a year, hence a 1980 number would more likely be 0004321, a 1981 would be 1006543.
By the end of 1982, serial numbers had reached 10,000 units so a 1982 number could be 2011234
This is the pattern I am finding, not just with LS models but also LC, ES, EX and FV

regards
Peter Mac
 
Very interesting, thank you. So you are sure that the 6 digits after the leading one simply indicate a sequential production counter starting with the first guitar built in 1978? But what about the 1977 and 1976 Les Paul Reborns then? By the way, my 1981 LS120 has the stamped serial number 1014419, so Love Rock production already reached 10,000 guitars earlier than 1982 if that's the correct method.

And what's your opinion on the "inked" vs. "impressed" serial numbers? Did the inked ones really only appear in 1980, but also with a leading "1"? Did they use the same method as described above, i.e. with the same numbering scheme? :-? This topic will haunt the forum forever... :roll:
 

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