Strat numbering since February 1, 1982 and x=y

I have started investigating about serial numbers of Tokai Stratocaster.

I checked the below page

http://members7.tsukaeru.net/levante40/catalogue/tokai/1982/31.jpg

and found a small description saying "this serial numbering formally starts from February 1, 1982". On that particular day Tokai might start L0000, for example, for the 1960-1964 Fender model. I guess such serial numbers do not show years of make, but give you sequential order of production.

I am sorry if the above has been already shared by everybody here.

Ian-san, can you share with me the seven X=Y codes you have gathered so far ??

Hi Daizo - yes I?ll email you with the list of numbers (includes descriptions of the guitars, ie style & features).

Another error on that page (copied to Registry I think) is that Telecaster is listed as first made in 1948, but actually Fender's first electric was the single pickup Esquire in spring 1950 (not 1948), quickly followed by a two pickup Esquire.

Contrary to popular belief, the Broadcaster name came after "Esquire", & replaced the Esquire name on the two pickup model from Autumn 1950. However, the Broadcaster name was dropped early in 1951 after an objection from Gretsch (who?d already trademarked the Broadcaster name on their drums). Until July 1951 Fender?s reaction was simply to cut the word Broadcaster off the decal, so the headstock just said ?Fender?? these are the so-called ?No-Caster? guitars. The two pickup Telecaster finally appeared for the first time in July 1951 at the Chicago NAMM trade show :-? .

Ian.

Ian-san,

What I have done since yesterday are ;

1) wrote an e-mail to Tokai Guitar to see if I can visit them to do some interviews as well as sightseeing its factory.

2) ordered one book which allocates some dozen pages to Tokai Stratocaster (pls see below link). I went to some music book shops in Tokyo, but only this issue is out of stock everywhere.

http://www.guitar.co.jp/image/item/book/j-vintage_vol-2.jpg

At the end of this book, there is a page showing several authors who are familiar with those vintage guitars. I will try to find a way to contact those guys directly.

The book arrived. It says x=y numbers show "lot number". It is not so clear that I have written to the author and his friends who wrote the book. One of them has 10 Tokai old stratocasters, so he may know it. I will keep you updated.

Daizo - many thanks for all your work on this ... yes I hope the authors will reply & tell us what they mean by a "lot number" ... sounds like maybe just a factory number for tracking the production process,... but seems like we're getting nearer to solving the mystery, so lets see. I'd also be interested to know where the authors got their information :-? .

Ian.

I ordered that book you mention some time ago,Daizo and I'll ask my friend Ito traslating it to me to spanish,it's very interesting.There is a very interesting Tokai strats style comparative as you recall and it is very well made with a great attention to detail as usual as you japanese people do.

You can take Shinkasen to Hamamtsu and then take bus ?#10 if I recall well(you can ask girls at bus information stand which to take).After about twenty minutes you'll reach the factory,you'll pass Kawai before.It's no esay task getting Tokai factory.I'm willing touring the factory more extensivly again but I cannot travel this year to Japan and i'd like to assist to World Exposition in Aichi.

Tokai's President Adachi-san is a very knowledge person and a cavalier,it is a pleasure meting him,I learnt a lot from him though lenguagge barrier we occidental people have.One thing I get thinking was the fact women placing electronics in guitar.Why?Just like Leo Fender did at old Fender factory as women can use both hands with a lot of eficience.Another fact I liked is Adachi-san being involved in production,when I met him he was with some employees disserting about acoustic guitars.Woods they stock are excellent also.I get impressed by Matsuyama-san building 335's too...what a master guitar builder.
I really get impressed by Tokai factory .

I have just received a mail from the head of writers of the Japan Vintage No.2. He says that one writer in his team, more familiar guy, will answer to me shortly, but it may take some time to do some researches regarding x=y coding, he said.

Luis-san, I thank you very much for your information. The book is full of quality information regarding Tokai Stratocaster. I am wondering why there isn't any description related to Les Paul. I will definitely visit their factory someday to know some background stories, although Tokai factory has not replied to me yet.

Daizo,

I've got that book curtesy of Mr. Adachi but unfortunately I do not read Japanese and my mother in law (who was Japanese) passed away after I received the book.

All of us will be greatful for any information you can get. Send me what ever you learn and I will include the information in the Registry (giving you full credit of course).

This site is so much fun. Where else do you get people from all over the World working to solve a puzzle. Makes it so easy to deal with the tech issues of the site knowing it helps make the collaboration easier.

Ned

Ned I'd try to make that information accesible to you but It is a 3 way translation japanese to spanish to english .Photos from that book are fantastic!!! but I think I cannot post directly from the book as they are Rittor's music and author's property.

Daizo, very sorry,please forgive my impulsive move,sometimes I forget japanese not written "laws",yes I think I 'd have to wait until Tokai factory answer before posting

Ned-san, there are too many information I want to translate, so pls allow me to take my time. Page 22-31 would be highlight. I did not know much about ST/TST, but its world seems to be deep. For example, distance between two dots on 12F is changed depending on models etc. etc..

Great news on getting contact with the author. I tried but the language barrier got in the way.

Daizo- just send me what you have when it is ready.

Ned

Hi Luis ? many thanks for a very interesting description of your tour around the Tokai factory,?yes I know it?s difficult because we are writing in English, about Japanese guitars, and your own language is Spanish! So I really appreciate your input not only on this topic, but also ever since this forum started (well before I got here!) :-? . Anyway, with Daizo?s kind help I hope we can learn something more about those x=y codes at last. Keep up the good work guys :-? .

Ian.
Ps:- I can?t speak a word of Spanish, but I have to learn some fast, because I have a lunchtime meeting in Madrid tommorow, & have to make several trips there over next few weeks (my first journey to mainland Spain) ... any good guitar shops in Madrid? ... how about the Flamenco guitarists, I think I should see/hear some of that?

Ian.

Hi Ian,very glad you visit Spain.Altough I do not live in Madrid I think I can help you.I'd suggest taking underground(we call it METRO-metropolitano abreviature-) as the fast way of travel

http://nivel.euitto.upm.es/E/Escuela/Ubicacion/Metro
http://www.metromadrid.es/default.asp?id=147

Traffic in Madrid is a hell.If you have free time anyday and you decided visiting the north of Spain I could be your guide If I have free time.

I'd suggest you going to Ardemadrid,Bosco,Leturiaga and

Websites:

http://www.ardemadrid.com/
This Sadepra's shop.Sadepra is very near(on the corner).Sadepra crries Mesa/Boogie amps and was old Fernandes importer to Spain.
www.sadepra.com

BOSCO, DISTRIB. DE INSTRUMENTOS MUSICALES
Direcci?n: FERNANDEZ DE LA HOZ, 78
C.P: 28003
Poblaci?n: MADRID
Provincia: Madrid
Pais: Espa?a
Tel. 91 4426000/4426426

Near to Bosco:
This was old Gibson distributor for the whole country but they carry Heritage now for obvious reason(Gibson killed them with his odd way of selling)


MADRID MUSICAL
Direcci?n: MALAGA, 8
C.P: 28003
Poblaci?n: MADRID
Provincia: Madrid
Pais: Espa?a
Tel. 91 4415799


I let this link so you can find a guitar shop wherever in Spain you were http://www.musices.com/subcat.php3?Cat=29&SubCat=60

I would suggest you visit the old great spanish guitars brands like Ramirez,Rodriguez,and such.....it is worth :wink:

www.guitarrasramirez.com
http://www.guitars-m-r-sons.com/
http://www.hermanosconde.com/
http://www.bernabe-guitars.com/

and all of this people http://www.guitarrasramirez.com/esp-disciples.htm

I have a good flameco guitarist CD I can record any for you if you want.

Paco de Lucia is the king alonside with Manolo Sanlucar.Enrique de Mechor is an excellent `player too,an excellent "acompa?ante"(ryhtm guitarist)
I'd recomend you Vicente Amigo(Paco de Lucia's disciple),Gerardo Nu?ez,Tomatito and Rafael Riqueni.Thay all are great!

I wish you have a good fly.

Luis - thanks very much for all that info. Unfortunately I had to leave early on Thursday morning (21st) so I didn?t see your links etc. until I got back. Enjoyed Madrid very much, but didn?t get much time to look for guitars ? I?ll email you privately about all that though, otherwise Ned will rightly warn me about posting stuff in the wrong place :-? .

Ian.

Hi

Foolishly did a newbie post asking about the x=y stamps before checking this!. I've heard this relates to the Japanese calendar!, could this be true?

The only reference I've found so far is this chap selling on EBay

"The maple neck is in excellent condition and the frets are in good shape. DELUXE is stamped on the back of the Kluson style tuners, there is a single butterfly string tree and the transitional style TOKAI decal is on the headstock face. The heel of the neck shows an ink stamp of 9=3 and refers to the month and year of manufacture according to the Japanese calender."

Check it in full at http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7312891266

Does this help, or is it an old wives tale?

Keef

I have not heard from Tokai nor a guy who wrote Tokai Strat book. Will push them a bit.

Japanese calender year goes like this ;

1978 = Showa Year 53
1979 = Showa Year 54
:
:
1988 = Showa Year 63
1989 = Heisei Year 1
1990 = Heisei Year 2
1991 = Heisei Year 3

"3" may mean 1978, 1988 or 1991 ... ????
Then how can we explain the pattern like 6-11, 12=11 etc.

golden week... nobody home.

I am home I just learned that the longest traffic jam on May 3 will be for 55km (more than 30 miles) on a certain highway !

Being at home sometimes brings luck. 14 minutes ago, I received an e-mail from the kind editor of Japan Vintage No.2.

He has seen 6=2A, 4＝11, 4＝12, 12＝2, and 7＝11 among guitars used for the magazine. There are no latter numbers being more than 12, he points out.

However, Fernandes large head guitar (of course made by Tokai in 1978) had F6=37, he said. I think this belongs to a different category.

While he does not know the exact mechanism of numbering, he estimates that the latter number may show production month because some has 4=11 on its body and 4=12 on neck butt - probably one month difference. Another example he found is 6-8 body and 6-6 neck - two months lag is quite likely.

He did not pay much attention to those numbers, but will do so and wants to exchange information going forward, his mail said.

Then, what does 12 of "12-11" mean ?? Production line in the factory ??

My survey to continue ...

It's like a detective novel !
thanks for inquiring, it's nice to follow.

(my silver star number is : 3036858)

According to this link, Sneaky was once told by president of Tokai that code was ?Month = Production No.?, eg 4=8 means April and production code 8. Seems strange though (& not sure Sneaky believed the guy either), because month doesn?t seem to help anyone much without the year (neither us nor Tokai factory) http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2177&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=stamped&start=15

The fact that we ?never? see numbers above 12 does suggest it?s a straightforward month number, but that could be just a coincidence of course (& seems both numbers go from 1 to 12!?).

If it doesn?t match the Japanese calendar I?m inclined to think whole thing may just be a production code for tracking the work of differnt producuction teams or differnt areas of the factory. They used to do same thing in the UK Staffordshire Pottery industries, ie many people were on so-called ?Piece Work?, ie paid by the number of pieces they produced ? they marked each piece with their initials or a symbol & were paid according to how much they did (but not paid for any sub-standard pieces).

Ian.