Please explain me long tenon

Outsider · Mar 22, 2007

Hello everybody!

Greetings from Helsinki. My first post here. I'm currently playing a Telecaster 52 AVRI but I've been thinking about switching back to a Paul-type guitar, my very first electric was a Maison-brand Paul copy. We have quite a good shop here in Helsinki that sells Tokai's, so that is what I'm going to get, I don't see a point spending twice as much on a Gibson. I've been playing for 19 years and I have had quite a many guitars including Gibsons, Fenders, Ibanez, Music Man, DeArmond etc. Nowadays I allow myself only one guitar at a time. I really can't justify several.

Could someone please explain me what's a long tenon? Is it something really important? I imagine it has something to do with the neck connecting the body. The Tokai models in my price range are LS-80 and LS-85 F. Does either of these have a "long tenon"? Do I really need it?

Thank you.

BaggyPants · Mar 22, 2007

Top is regular Gibson modern production, bottom is the long tenon used on custom shop reissue guitars (and on the originals up to 1960).

This shows you where the modern Tokai tenon comes up to. Almost as far as the original Gibson specifications, but without the little bit under the pickup rout.

The long tenons give a far better body/neck join. Both your LS-80 and LS-85 F will have a tenon similar to the last photo 8)

Outsider · Mar 22, 2007

Thank you Baggy Pants for the very informative photos. But who has sawed a two guitars in half like that? Where did you find the photos? And how do you KNOW which is which? And how can on be sure that a particular model has what the label says? Just wondering. Thanks again!

tudor · Mar 22, 2007

Outsider said:
The Tokai models in my price range are LS-80 and LS-85 F. Does either of these have a "long tenon"? Do I really need it?

Hi,
... welcome to the forum ... :lol: :lol:

... the long neck tenon is nice to have but not urgently required ... and if you really need it ... ???
Some say there is a better sustain and transfer of tone to the body wood, but I don't hear a difference ... my Edwards has got one - my '85 LS150 doesn't have it ... I don't care ... :wink: :wink: :wink:
The new Tokais provide a long neck tenon on the higher grade models ... from LS135 up ...

On this pic you can see the long neck tenon on the left side the short on the right ...

[/img]

My LS150 (short tenon / set neck) ...

[/img]

... long neck tenon on an Edwards ...

[/img]

Hope it helps ... :wink: :wink: :wink:

Roger

Outsider · Mar 22, 2007

Thanks Tudor!

I knew this was one of those questions you shouldn't ask because the answer will porbably make my life more complicated. But I'm looking for something under 1000 euros, so I guess I just have try not to think about this stuff too much. But thank you anyway, it's nice to learn new things about guitars.

tudor · Mar 22, 2007

Outsider said:
I knew this was one of those questions you shouldn't ask because the answer will porbably make my life more complicated.

YES - you're right ... the more of best specs available the more expensive your guitar will be ... no doubt ... :-? :-? :-?

Many of the early high grade models from the early 80s didn't have a long neck tenon, neither most of the LS120 nor my LS150 e.g. and even villager's LS200 doesn't have one ... but they are beautiful sounding and looking guitars though ... :lol: :lol:

BTW - the Tokai short tenons fit very tight into the body cavity ... so no complaints about a wiggling neck ... as it might happen with the Gibbo built neck (the first one of BaggyPants' pics) ... :roll: :roll:

Roger

Paladin2019 · Mar 22, 2007

Outsider said:
Thank you Baggy Pants for the very informative photos. But who has sawed a two guitars in half like that? Where did you find the photos? And how do you KNOW which is which? And how can on be sure that a particular model has what the label says? Just wondering. Thanks again!

Believe it or not, those guitars are Gibson Les Pauls. They were sawn in half by Gibson and the photos were put on Gibson's website in an article that described the differences between the Les Paul Standards and the Custom Shop historic reissues.

The pictures were taken down after an uproar in the online guitar community - many were shocked and appalled that the neck joint on Les Paul Standards was so badly made. Look at it - there is no contact between the neck and the body except at the sides. This has a huge effect on vibration transfer, tone and sustain. In an age of automated production and CNC machines, such an obvious cost-cutting measure that had such a negative impact on the guitar's structure and tone is inexcuseable. Many people refused to believe that these were real gibson photos until they saw the article on gibson.com

It's easy to tell which version of the neck joint a guitar has - just take out the neck pickup and have a look!

Amo · Mar 23, 2007

This is the long tenon on my LS1000

I cant see that that little amount of wood would make any difference to the sound to be honest, I think its probably more of an indicator of a good neck to body joint more than anything

Nice to have but not essential

ACY · Mar 23, 2007

The difference in length is just about 2cm between a LS85 (example) and a LS135. These 2cm are well seen in the pic of Amo?s LS1000! Does anyone really think, these 2cm?s in the bottom of the PU-cavity make any difference in sound? (I?m only talking bout Tokais!) I do not think so - for sure!
good on ya mates! "ACY"

Outsider · Mar 23, 2007

Thanks for all the comments and pictures. I got my peace-of-mind back. I'm probably going for the LS-85 F.

Gibson had quite a marketing strategy: "Look people, this the crappy neck joint you get in your brand-new 2000 euro LP Standard. But if you pay twice the price, we can make it pretty decent."

ACY · Mar 23, 2007

I?m sure you?ll have big fun with a LS85! Great guitars!
bye, "ACY"
P.S.: Good luck for your search!

tudor · Mar 23, 2007

ACY said:
Does anyone really think, these 2cm?s ... make any difference in sound?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Listen to your girlfriend ... :wink: :wink: ... or ask her what she would prefer ... :wink: :wink:

Roger

ACY · Mar 23, 2007

That?s been a good one!

I prefer "wide fat" ones!

good on ya, "ACY"

Outsider · Mar 24, 2007

My girlfriend says that my tenon is longer than her last boyfriend.

Have a nice weekend!

vapotti · Mar 30, 2007

Outsider said:
My girlfriend says that my tenon is longer than her last boyfriend.

Have a nice weekend!

Now c'moon

You don't have to lie to us!

Ei se oo se koko mik? merkitsee

pages plexitone · Jun 8, 2007

Baggy Pants, man thanks for finding/posting that picture. As they say, worth a thousand words!!!!

Philosopher · Jun 9, 2007

Unbelievable....
I never touched a historic Gibson LP, but I've played (and owned a couple) modern Standards. My ls90q has nothing to be jealous of them (except, probably, a bridge pickup issue, but I'll give it some time). I don't have the gibbies anymore, so I can't make an AB comparison, but still I think the same.
I suppose a high end LoveRock (>ls150) will be even better that a modern Standard.

pages plexitone · Jun 9, 2007

Philosopher said:
Unbelievable....
I never touched a historic Gibson LP, but I've played (and owned a couple) modern Standards. My ls90q has nothing to be jealous of them (except, probably, a bridge pickup issue, but I'll give it some time). I don't have the gibbies anymore, so I can't make an AB comparison, but still I think the same.
I suppose a high end LoveRock (>ls150) will be even better that a modern Standard.

I think you're right. I have a really nice 98 Gibbie standard that's taken a trip to Joe Glaser's in Nashville to be pleked and stainless fretted so the neck is about as perfect as I could ask for (too skinny though). But if I had it to do again, I think I'd start with my LS-135 and plek it. I don't think my LS-135 has to make any excuses in a a head-to-head with a standard....and BTW, I went through 4 R6s until I found one that I would buy. You'd think at that price point they'd have a little better QC. The R6 is a great guitar. But no doubt, Tokai's version would be in her league.

Philosopher · Jun 9, 2007

pages plexitone said:
....and BTW, I went through 4 R6s until I found one that I would buy. You'd think at that price point they'd have a little better QC. The R6 is a great guitar.

That's an excellent point, I forgot to mention that myself.
You have to try a whole market's stock to find a good one in terms of sound and finish....

luis · Jun 9, 2007

About LS150 and Gibson Standard:not so sure if better but it plays in the same league yes it does.If LS135 is similar to a 150 but plain then LS135 plays in the same league too...

I haven?t tried LS145 still but I can say a LS320 and a R6 plays in the same league too.I tried both at the same time and it was my feeling.

Please explain me long tenon

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