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Love rock Intonation woes..

Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:48 am
by candh
Hello folks,

I just bought this fine LS95Q lefty. It is a great sounding and even better playing guitar. This is my first Les Paul type guitar in like 20 years and it is a nice deviation from the strats and teles. I have been building fender style guitars for years and have been doing fret jobs and set-ups since I can remember but I'll be darned if I can get this thing compensated. Particularly the B string with relation to the G and D. I'm really picky with intonation and always fine tune even after a string change. I know intonation theory well.

Actually, the guitar shows no problems during the process of intonation but some chords are really appearing uncompensated from the middle registers.

I'm starting to think this is just the nature of the EQ focus of these guitars and the usual intonation anomolies present on all guitars is more pronounced with the les paul voice.

Just a little baffled that's all.


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Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:50 am
by adrianclark
Have you checked the nut position?

Or, more importantly, how are you checking the intonation? Using the 12th fret harmonic method can be misleading, because of potential nut problems.

Try putting a capo on the 2nd fret and intonating the guitar (so you'll actually be using the 14th fret rather than the 12th). Tune the open strings and play chords up and down the neck.

If everything sounds in tune, remove the capo and fine tune the open strings as necessary. If there are now intonation problems again, there will almost certainly be a problem with the nut... either the whole thing is badly positioned, or the slots aren't cut properly (a tiny hump in the slot may be giving the string a false "end point").


adrian

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:05 am
by BaggyPants
I ditched using harmonics ages ago. I intonate mine so the fretted 12th is the same as the open string. Works much better, because it's intonated under playing pressure that way :D

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:33 am
by candh
Hi guys,

Thank you for the responses. Well, I re-slotted the G and B as they were binding a bit and tuning seems better I guess.

As for setting the intonation I use either the standard fretted 12th method or the fretted 5th and 17th octaves.

I'm not fond of using a capo because I find capos tend to put an unnatural amount of pressure on the stings which however minor lengthens the scale. I have taller frets on a few guitars so the effect is further amplified.

With the same concept as the capo of negating any problems at the nut the fretted 5th and 17th method has been very accurate to date. The guitar is intonated to your own "weight" of fretting and it covers more of the typical problems of uncompensation (sharper up the neck).

Again, I am kind of demanding about tuning and intonation. In fact, I drive my bandmates crazy (and visa-versa) but we ARE in tune. LOL
I still think it is inherent in the thick voice of these guitars. They are more sensitive to tuning and intonation than my strats and teles.

Everyone is different though and that is what I find really interesting.

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:01 pm
by adrianclark
candh wrote:I'm not fond of using a capo because I find capos tend to put an unnatural amount of pressure on the stings which however minor lengthens the scale.
No, it'll vary the *tension*, but the scale is fixed by the positions of the fret and the bridge saddle.


adrian

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:03 pm
by adrianclark
BaggyPants wrote:I ditched using harmonics ages ago. I intonate mine so the fretted 12th is the same as the open string.
That won't make any difference... the harmonic will *always* be exactly the same as the harmonic anyway. The crucial one is the fretted note, because that's what you're adjusting when you change the intonation.

The main reason people use fretted->harmonic instead of fretted->open is because it's often easier to judge a unison interval than an octave.


adrian

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:22 pm
by candh
adrianclark wrote:
candh wrote:I'm not fond of using a capo because I find capos tend to put an unnatural amount of pressure on the stings which however minor lengthens the scale.
No, it'll vary the *tension*, but the scale is fixed by the positions of the fret and the bridge saddle.


adrian
Yes, you are oh so right. Nothing to do with scale length. It was 1:00 am after a long day at work when I wrote all that. :oops: I know the actual capo has nothing to do with setting the intonation (duh! on my part).


My excuse is I have grown to HATE capos and do my utmost not to use them and prefer not to listen to people using them, especially live. So, when I see "capo" I just cringe.

Your method and my preferred method are exactly the same premise; eliminate the nut.

Thanks for ,,setting me straight,, :lol:

cheers

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:33 pm
by Ducati
Why don't you get her pleked?

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:51 pm
by TSL
Plekking WILL improve your intonation, absolutely. I have had three of my seven electrics plekked.

Also, while the Buz Feiten nut requires an offset (and fussy) tuning regime IMO, I have recently made a compensated nut similar to the Earvana nut (which is a good design, inexpensive, but they use crap materials for thier nut, and it's ugly, again, IMO), my compensated nut experiement was a huge success. Did it to an assambled Strat, using Mighty Mite parts, didn't want to experiment on an expensive guitar. I hope to see the day when major guitar makers use compensated nuts.

Also, I agree absolutely that the intonation problems with guitars are generally worse on Les Paul styles than say, Strats. I think it comes from the greater resonance and sustain of a large dense guitar verses a lighter Fender style guitar.

If you are REALLY picky about intonation (as I am) and it sounds like you are, the Plek techinque is the way to go. Also, having every fretted note on the neck with the exact same decay is really nice.

plek.com I believe is the site that will find yout nearest machine. Alternately, just google "plek guitar".

Good luck!

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:35 pm
by candh
I've heard about pleking and it sounds like a great solution IF there was a vendor with a machine within a reasonable distance (Japan). We (family) might be going for a trip to Australia in the near furture so I could take the guitar along and get it done there.

TSL, it's good to know that someone else agrees that the resonating and sustaining properties of the guitar might have something to do with it. I am a strat and tele guy so I thought I was going ku-ku. Of course, we both could be a little "loopy". :lol:
I have to admit though, for Robben Fordish stuff the love rock is really nice.

candh

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:58 pm
by TSL
I had to ship my guitars 1000 miles for Pleking, so I feel for the hassle it would be for you...but as an intonation/set up freak, it was worth the gamble and expense. No regrets, obviuosly, as I've repeated it with other guitars.

Also, I find lower action minimizes the problem, as the strings move less to fret the note. Fortunately, I like lower action on my LP style guitars, and a bit higher on my Strat styles (I like both types, almost equal), as Strats/Teles lend themselves to a more percussive playing style, and the "snap" helps. Plus, I play lead in a smoother, Santana style (for lack of a more accurate description), so it's only chording I need higher action for.

Nice to have this chat with a kindred spirit. We are not the crazy ones, we are just more demanding. :wink:
Judge my playing for yourself if you like:
http://youtube.com/jefculhane

Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:47 pm
by candh
Yo TSL,

That is some nice playing and great tone (for youtube). Whenever, I see video of live shows it takes me back to my giging days. It has been quite a long time since I toured but I used to be with this guy mccoycountry.com traveling all over the place. Tony Del, the guitarist that took over, is really an amazing player. And a good bud ta boot. I always have to bring him back a surprise (amp, pedal, or guitar) from Japan whenever I go back to Canada for a visit.

Alas, I now live in rural Japan and we only gig a few times a month (if that). I still play a lot but am really into amp building and keep pretty busy filling amp orders.

Good stuff, man.

candh[/url]

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:34 pm
by TSL
Kind words, thanks you. Those clips were from last year. Not gigging right now, but need the excerise, will get back to it soon.

Enjoy the search for the perfect intonation! :D

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:35 am
by vapotti
TSL wrote:I had to ship my guitars 1000 miles for Pleking, so I feel for the hassle it would be for you...but as an intonation/set up freak, it was worth the gamble and expense. No regrets, obviuosly, as I've repeated it with other guitars.

Also, I find lower action minimizes the problem, as the strings move less to fret the note. Fortunately, I like lower action on my LP style guitars, and a bit higher on my Strat styles (I like both types, almost equal), as Strats/Teles lend themselves to a more percussive playing style, and the "snap" helps. Plus, I play lead in a smoother, Santana style (for lack of a more accurate description), so it's only chording I need higher action for.

Nice to have this chat with a kindred spirit. We are not the crazy ones, we are just more demanding. :wink:
Judge my playing for yourself if you like:
http://youtube.com/jefculhane
whats that pleking thingy?

can somebody explain?

Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:32 pm
by mattim
Here you can find at least one meaning for "PLEK" http://www.ultimateguitargear.com/review_plek.htm

Matti