Guide me on high LS models like LS-200

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Scando

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Hi, Tokai friends,
I would love some basic guidance to the higher LS models, notably a basic understanding of the LS200 and LS320. My interest specifically in these models is new, and I find the price-pegged model names getting a bit confusing with inflation over time. Apologies if not all my facts or terminology are correct.

As it happens, I seek very high actual sound/build quality and I would be prepared to pay for this – BUT on top of that I do not want to pay the large extra amounts that sometimes need to be added only for mystique that has grown around certain vintages/models or for strict true-to-original adherence when copying/reissuing some other guitar (such as a 59 Gibson). Also, I have no problem with automated CNC-produced components over manual manufacture, as long as the final result is a guitar that is just as perfect. Looks matter but playing features are most important.

Here in Europe, I see a brand new LS-200F weighing in at an attractive €3000, with used specimens going down towards €2000. What are the main observable differences compared to the 80s vintages of (what was then called) the LS-200 – spec details or just general reputation? And while on the LS-200 topic, would the LS-200 around 2005 have their own nature too? How, generally speaking?

Another thing I wonder is, overall, how to understand the difference between the LS-200 and the LS-320 (currently I look at those from around 2005 with that name), or possibly even higher models? Is the 320 higher than 200 in general specs, or is either of them particularly designed to historically resemble a 59 Gibson LP and priced higher just because of that? Then, what would be my main quality loss if I save money by stepping down from (a recent) LS-200 to LS-150?

As you notice I try to grasp the big picture here, I am not chasing exact spec lists as such (yet).

If you have, or see, second-hand guitars out there that you think would suit me, you are welcome to let me know (though I may not want to pay a lot in advance other than to sellers with a good track record).

Take care!
 
I'm not familiar with the newer LS-200 but I am familiar with the LS-320.
320 will have 1 piece Hoduran mahogany body back & neck, 4A flame Maple top, Jacaranda aka Brazilian fingerboard.
Some 320s will have Seth Lover pickups, fret edge binding, and 'amber cell' inlays.
Some do not have those particular pickups, inlays, nor fret edge binding.
320s are some fine guitars; I know mine is. :)

As far as higher end vintage LS versus newer LS, I prefer newer. IMO I believe the build quality of the newer (higher end) LS is a cut above vintage LS.
My opinion is based on vintage & newer examples I have had in my hands personally. I am aware that most seem to prefer vintage Tokai. You have choices. 8) And then there is the potential for lumber spec differences. Things to consider.

One thing to consider when importing any item that contains Brazilian rosewood: You run a risk when importing these items without the proper paperwork because of CITES Appendix I, as Brazilian has been on Appendix I for several decades. IMO the risk is likely a low level risk but it is still a gamble, and there could be a potential to have something confiscated that contains Brazilian. Food for thought.

Since you're in Europe you may want to contact TF member villager; he may be able to help you with specs & maybe even locating an instrument.
Good luck
 
Great thanks, guitar hiro, for highly rapid and insightful response!
It takes a brave guitar lover to publicly prefer newer issues over vintage ones with rocketing prices, so compliments there! ;-) And I will definitely carry your Cites advice with me through life.

Let me ask if I have understood it correctly, that the LS-320 was designed to closely resemble the '59 Gibson LP Standard, logically making it quite similar to Gibson's own reissues of the same model? (I'm not out to reopen the eternal which-brand-is-better discussion in this very thread - I am just asking a style question about the model.) And/or could the same be said about, say, the LS-200?

Thanks again to you all!
 
Scando said:
And/or could the same be said about, say, the LS-200?

It depends on the year. LS-320 was designed to have everything a '59 gibson had, as far as possible - Nitro lacquer, rare woods, high end pickups, high-end electronics, fret-edge binding.

The LS-200's which were on the market when the LS320 came out had plenty of high-end features but they had typical Japanese specifications and were not trying to be historical. They used acrylic lacquer, standard electronics, solid/1-piece woods, unbound fret ends, Gotoh pickups... to me their most interesting feature was an ebony fretboard. I believe they were trying to be something different and distinctive, while still being everything a Les Paul should be. Whether they were successful is a matter of opinion... most people who could afford one seemed to push a bit further and buy the LS-320.
 
Again, I'm not familiar with the newer LS-200 so, can't speak to that spec wise.

As far as your use of the term "resemble" that is a term that implies a visual comparison but I think you are looking at the bigger picture in terms of materials used for the 320 build aka specs. In that regard I would have to say that Tokai made a very serious effort to produce a Les Paul style guitar that meets most attributes of a '59 when Tokai built the LS-320.

All three of the lumber species that have been historically associated with the '58, '59, and '60 burst are present in the 320; dalbergia nigra, swietenia macrophylla, and acer saccharum. The 320 also has a long neck tenon, yet another burst attribute, which vintage Tokai LS do not have. Throw in the fret edge binding for nearly a complete package of old school Gibson burst attributes. Not all LS-320s have FEB; some do & some don't. The Seth Lover pickups were produced in association with the man that produced the original PAF, utilizing the same grade (alnico 2) magnets that were claimed to be used in many PAFs. The original Seth Lovers in my 320 sound great but then we all know about opinions. :lol:
So, I believe Tokai made their best effort to date, to recreate their version of a burst with the LS-320; again, only an opinion.

My 320 isn't perfect; I'm not a fan of the amber cell inlays, and the neck thickness could be a lot beefier, as I prefer a larger thickness '59 to '58 type, beefier neck. No guitar is perfect.

As far as Gibson LP reissues, most are not made with Honduran, nor with Brazilian. Are those species required to make a good reissue? Likely not.

IMO the LS-320 checks most boxes in regard to getting close to a replica of a '59 in a cataloged, yet order only guitar. The fact that Tokai offered these for the price point is a great alternative to a Gibson reissue; even the Brazlian Gibson reissues. I don't believe those have Hoduran lumber for the body back, or the neck. So, even a Gibson reissue with a Brazilian board is still not going to be as accurate, lumber species wise.

The LS-320 may not be a perfect replica of a late 50s Gibson burst but IMO for the lumber utilized & for the price point, I don't know of a better bargain anywhere. I also know that vintage Tokai can't touch the 320 spec wise. 8)
 
I forgot to add a couple of points concerning my particular LS-320: it has two anomalous attributes, one of which I know at least two other 320s do have.
(1) the tail piece is installed slightly off center line, just slightly toward the bass side. This is patterned after a (supposed & claimed) well known burst with the same uncorrected tail piece placement installation. Canadian luthier Scott Wilkinson aka ExNihilo has produced replicas that include this anomalous tail piece placement installation.
(2) The dot that is supposed to be above the i in Tokai is actually not above the i; it is above the a. :lol:
I know of two other LS-320 examples from the same (circa 2000) era with the exact i dot misplacement over the a.
Rupert had one & eBay seller mijguitar aka John had one. So, there are at least three out there with this attribute.

The misplacement of the i dot reminds me of the numismatic collectors seeking coins that were mis-struck, double struck, etc., because they were extremely rare, and commanded a higher selling price. 8)
Since my 320 has two misplaced location items, maybe my 320 is worth a gazillion. :lol:
I told you it isn't perfect. :lol:
 
guitar hiro said:
(1) the tail piece is installed slightly off center line, just slightly toward the bass side. This is patterned after a (supposed & claimed) well known burst with the same uncorrected tail piece placement installation. Canadian luthier Scott Wilkinson aka ExNihilo has produced replicas that include this anomalous tail piece placement installation.

VERY Interesting to hear you say that. My LS200 has just last week had a setup and a new bridge fitted (ABM 2500 Stainless), and the luthier who did it said exactly the same thing about mine - where he cut the saddle slots the strings are at a slight angle between bridge and tailpiece, and the strings want to pull towards the bass side.

On my previous TonePros bridge, fitted by someone else, they cut the slots towards the bass side because of the perceived alignment issue.

Do you have any more info on this? I'd love to find out more and I'm sure my tech would too.
 
Thanks, Paladin2019, and thanks again, guitar hiro! Your insight level on this topic is just astonishing, and your responsiveness too! I am currently eying a seemingly nice LS-320 at an attractive price, and hope to be able to return with news soon. ;-) Your information has helped me a lot in feeling confident about this.

Yes, I am glad you exactly understood what I meant by ”resemble”, although it was the wrong word (English is my second language). Perhaps ”precise accordance with ’59 specs” is a way to put it more spot on. Yes, with that tailpiece offset you describe, I guess that accordance is taken far (bordering on over-the-top). ;-)
 
Paladin2019 said:
guitar hiro said:
(1) the tail piece is installed slightly off center line, just slightly toward the bass side. This is patterned after a (supposed & claimed) well known burst with the same uncorrected tail piece placement installation. Canadian luthier Scott Wilkinson aka ExNihilo has produced replicas that include this anomalous tail piece placement installation.

VERY Interesting to hear you say that. My LS200 has just last week had a setup and a new bridge fitted (ABM 2500 Stainless), and the luthier who did it said exactly the same thing about mine - where he cut the saddle slots the strings are at a slight angle between bridge and tailpiece, and the strings want to pull towards the bass side.

On my previous TonePros bridge, fitted by someone else, they cut the slots towards the bass side because of the perceived alignment issue.

Do you have any more info on this? I'd love to find out more and I'm sure my tech would too.

I should have used the caveat that I read this on the interwebzes & as we all know everything we read on the interwebezes is true; right? :lol:
It may be true but then, it may not be.
Scott is active on multiple forums so, he could be contacted via different venues for clarification & offer the low down. 8)
Here is one; hope this doesn't breach the TF rules. https://www.guitarscanada.com/threads/introduction-hello.88009/
There are a few guitars that Scott built that are pictured in that thread that are also on other forums.
Contact Scott for clarification.

But my 2000 LS-320 does have the tail piece just slightly misaligned to the bass side of the instrument.
When I first got the guitar in my hands I thought, gee, what crappy quality control.
Then I noticed the a was dotted & not the i. Then I thought, what, do I have a forgery? :lol:
My LS-320 has been in my possession for over 12 years & I love it with all of its' warts; even the thinner neck profile.
I have never owned any other Les Paul type for this long a period of time so, maybe I will have it 'til my grave. :-? Oh sh!t.
 

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