New versus old

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throstur

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It would be interesting to hear from people that have played both the ?old? Reborns and Love Rocks and have also played and examined the newer high end guitars from Tokai, say guitars made after 2000. How do the new ones stand up against the old ones? Are they of similar quality as the old ones? Do they have fret end bindings, long tenons, aluminium tailpieces e.t.c? And, last but not least, do they sound, sustain and sing as good as the "old" ones?

This would be of great interest to people who are looking for great guitars to play, but with less interest in collecting guitars
 
A philosophical question. In old and new there are guitars with different specs (wood, puckups, bridge, caps)
So ist really depends. Is a LS-50 from the eighties better than a 2012 LS-360?
Your mileage may vary.
I consider myself a player, but i do like older gear for personal taste reasons.
 
gordon said:
A philosophical question. In old and new there are guitars with different specs (wood, puckups, bridge, caps)
So ist really depends. Is a LS-50 from the eighties better than a 2012 LS-360? Your mileage may vary. I consider myself a player, but i do like older gear for personal taste reasons.
.

Yeah I know Gordon, it?s all relative of course. I tend to lean towards older gear to..... but only if it is better than a new similar guitar. A good guitar gets better with use in my opinion.

I can get a new Tokai ULS150 for around 1400 pounds, and a good used one for maybe 1000 Pounds. LS-150 from around 1980 would probably cost at least twice as much. So, if they are similar in quality and sound and everything it would make sense for a player that wants to add a fantastic guitar to his armory to buy the new one would?t it?
 
well, a new uls 150 and an old ls150, say 1981, are not the same guitar... the older was near the top of the line, US pick ups, solid flame top, probably a better choiced mahogany... the newer is a very good guitar and very often you find a keeper... tearing the veil of the temple i have to say that not always an old tokai sound better than its newer sister (in the same range of features). For example in my opinion Gotoh MKII pick ups are far better than Gotoh's that were on my '80 LS80. For sure, anyway, often time does his work correctly and old Tokai's have unbeatable wood vibe. For strats is valid only the vintage option instead IMHO...
That said i'm biased on '58 LP specs and an old LS80 and a 2005 LS150 (that are substantially equivalent in terms of features) have to stay ALWAYS near me... :p :p
 
After I got my 1989 LS-55 I fully understand what the fuzz is about. It?s better IMHO than any Gibson LP that I have owned and played. It has this singing woody feel and I can get rich harmonics all over the fretboard, without effort, whenever I like.

So the "old" LS 80 and the "new" LS150 should have more or less the same specs then.

Cheers
T
 
I agree on wood vibes and I believe back in the 80ies there were simply different stocks of wood available. Older, dryer, more selected?
For instance, I have an A-Serial MIJ Telecaster with an incredibly lightweight ash body and this guitar just shines even when played acoustically. Neck has a light flame and still is just a stock TL-52 with US-Pickups factory installed.

I believe in japanese craftsmanship and work ethic being high all along the way back then and today. All MIJ guitars I have ever owned were highly playable, great necks, frets, nuts. I was able to set them up properly, they stay in tune. But maybe I was just lucky?

To me, pickups are a matter of trial and error in any guitar and as a player you tend to experiment and I'd take out stock Gotoh pickups if I don't like them from any 80ies guitar as well as from a brandnew one. I have Bare Knuckle pickups in some of my Guitars, I think they are fantastic.

I still own my first electric guitar, it is a cheapo Suzuki-branded LP-Custom clone, open book large headstock, Norlin style volute, pancake body. She doesn't have great clean sounds but rocks if you crank her. She has a short tenon, had creepy hardware and pickups, which I replaced. I would still put her up to any of today's MIC Epiphones and even LP Studios in terms of frets, finish playability after 30 years of use.

If you have a chance to check out an old used LS-80 or LS-150 in person, I would give it a shot. If not, I would maybe stick with a new ULS-150, which can be returned if you are not satisfied.

On a personal side, I prefer used guitars over brand spankin' new ones.
 
I've owned a number of vintage and modern premium LS models.
For the purpose of this post, a base vintage premium model is LS-80 and up, while modern premium models are LS-160 and up (or LS-150 plain top only, prior to 2009) :

Select woods used on vintage premium models are generally reserved for LS-320+ models from 2000 on, but there are exceptions to this on several lower LS-260 models I have owned. Fret edge binding is used on LS-320+ models from 2000 on (LS-470 today).
I doubt premium Tokai vintage mahogany was usually Honduran and fretboards usually Brazilian, however.
They rarely resemble early G!bson wood selections which where commonly Honduran and Brazilian.
Eastern Canadian hard maple is similar for both G!bson and premium Tokais, but vintage figured maple top selection was much better.
Modern LS-150 flame tops are NOT premium models and do not have eastern hard maple tops !

A larger percentage of each vintage model was hand made. Newer models have more CNC machine work prior to assembly.
Overall, workmanship on new vs Vintage premium models varies very little despite this.

Gotoh hardware remains very similar, including use of brass saddles, old and new.

CTS pots on modern premium models are slightly better.

I am possibly the exception, preferring modern Premium Tokais in terms of feel and tone, after pickup and cap changes. Tolerances, (especially neck dimensions, are much closer from one modern premium LS to the next.
Most of my vintage Tokai LS models had minor issues, albeit repairable ones, an additional hidden cost added to already inflated current valuations.
Modern models remain difficult to resell, compared to more sought after, vintage premium models, which have appreciated in value over the past two years instead of declining in value as most modern LS examples have.

I don't want to argue the merits of old wood vs new wood, but it does make sense that tone wood with the best qualities was more plentiful 30 years ago.
ESP, Tokai and Bacchus might disagree.
Jimmy Page's "59 Burst was about 10 years old when he recorded the first Zep albums.
I do think thinner vintage lacquer formulations, vintage PAF's and vintage hand wired tube amps with vintage style transformers have the potential for making Les Pauls sound better than modern alternatives.
 
Thanks Reborn Old, this is what I was after with my post, opinions from people that own or have tried both new and old Tokai?s. Your post is very interesting indeed.

It is very useful to know that a base vintage premium model is LS-80 and up, while modern premium models are LS-160 and up (or LS-150 plain top only, prior to 2009).

Cheers
T
 
The best Tokai I've ever played is a 2011 LS92.

I haven't played too many vintage Tokais, but I've played about 550 new ones.
 
throstur said:
while modern premium models are LS-160 and up (or LS-150 plain top only, prior to 2009).

Not too sure what this means, but I'll check it out in an encyclopaedia. :D
 
Diamond said:
throstur said:
while modern premium models are LS-160 and up (or LS-150 plain top only, prior to 2009).

Not too sure what this means, but I'll check it out in an encyclopaedia. :D

I think it means that if you want a new Tokai with the same specs as a vintage LS-80, you would have to get new LS-160.
:)
 
I like the old ones better if only for the neck profiles and that the finishes seem to have aged more than the Grecos and Burnys I've had from the same era. The LC-100 custom I have from 1979 is 3.6 kg which is a light piece of Mahogany.

On the other hand, I have seen a lot of the 320s and up here in Tokyo and they look very nice with FEB and Jacaranda boards on some. I am sure in 20 years people will be happy to chose the "old" premium ones from 2012 over the latest LS-800 premium models. :wink:
 
LS-320s have a slightly different tenon than 2005 and on LS-380s and the jacaranda is lighter in colour (paler).

There are very nice old and new Tokais,it?s all about your feeling. I am very confident with any Tokai I would buy, quality guitar for sure and I am becoming more demanding everyday( It is so difficult finding a guitar better than what you own at some point without spending an arm and a leg).
I do love LS-80s Reborns neck it is different than LS-50 wich seems more similar in profile to recent Tokais. Laquer finish feels different than recent onesalso, but it could be related to aged in a guitar with 30 years on it .

Regards,
Luis.
 

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