cap's in ls125

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RocknBlues

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Hi all, does anyone know the type of cap's used in the 08 model LS125F?

I was looking in the classified section and an 08 LS90Q for sale has the same looking cap's.

Just wondering what type they might be.
 
I referred a friend of mine to this thread who is quite knowledgable on caps since he is also into making boutique effects and amps. He could not id them to the manufacturer but mentioned them to be some kind of Japanese film/mylar caps.

The "high-end" caps used in guitars are usually Paper-in-oil. These excel in the top-end of the tone spectrum and also add a bit more of that raw, "sore-throat"ish LP style growl.
see http://media.photobucket.com/image/paper%20in%20oil%20caps/outtahear/DSC04070.jpg

There are many PIO caps avbl, some cheaper and some expensive. RS guitarworks kit also has PIO caps.

and the "originals" are considered to be bumblee caps.

http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-022-SPRAGUE-BUMBLEBEE-PIO-CAPACITOR-400-VDC_W0QQitemZ280412525083QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item4149e3921b

You can also look at sprague orange drops which provide a slightly more articulate tone than PIO caps

The ceramic caps (which are the "thin" caps found standard on the Gibson US models) are the worst in terms of tone IMO. The top-end is very harsh. The caps on your guitar are definitely better than that.

You might think of upgrading the caps as they are an inexpensive upgrade which affects the tone in quite a significant way.
 
Is there any difference between the Bumblebee's and the PIO cap you showed?

Looking around eBay I found Bumblebee's going for $10 to 40 US for a pair. This looked like a good deal for a prewired kit with CTS pots;

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-Les-Paul-wiring-paper-in-oil-capacitor-caps_W0QQitemZ320437528514QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item4a9b90a7c2

I've heard of people paying overe $100 for these.
 
"Bumble bees" is just a fancy name for Paper in oil caps that were produced by sprague during "that" era (50s and 60s) that were used by Gibson in their guitars.
Technically they not better caps than the PIO caps available today as they tend to drift a lot and develop leakage. The prices are sky-high because of the "mojo" associated. Any and all PIO caps will exhibit a smoothtop end and a distinctively spongier low-end and put you in the ballpark of bumblebees tonewise. Whether you like it or not is upto you.

I'd say you are better off trying inexpensive current production PIO caps. I definitely like my Vitamin Ts and a friend of mine is quite satisfied with Vit Qs. Do not buy bumblebees if this is gonna be your first cap upgrade. a) You do not yet understand the tonal differences and b) not everybody prefers the same tone.

Experiment with inexpensive caps (both in type as well as value - lower value caps tend to brighten the tone). Once you know the tone you like, you can upgrade to high-end caps.

EDIT :
In the details of that fleabay auction, I'm kinda dumbfounded with a coupl of statements

Long shaft CTS pots that have been impedance balanced for minimum variation between circuits.
I don't get it. The only impedances on pots should be resistive, and that too equal to the specified value and drifting between the mentioned tolerance. This does not make any sense to me.

Assembled using vintage soldering irons
All I can say is - LOL WUT? Those are not Leesona winding machines or something man....they're just soldering irons !!! If you say you're using coupla years old oxidised tips to solder, I say your caps are bust from the heat and you can take 'em up wherever.....

one has some extra drag spots from the manufacturer. Although great effort is made to build consistent control assemblies, parts manufacturers tolerances and handcrafting each unit creates one of a kind products. The result for rock or blues guitarists is that each volume/tone control assy will provide you with a unique sound for a lifetime
I'd suspect B-stock pots...I WOULD NOT prefer each pot to sound different......I don't know how or why it would make sense to anyone for that matter.....
 
This is quite interesting to me; I've tried many different values but never thought about design.

An LS100Q I bought recently came with BB caps and to my ears sounds amazing. Another Tokai I picked up, a koa top custom came with CTS pots and I'm not sure what the caps are, except they are black. Cylindrical in shape and about half the size of BBs. The Koa is brighter than the 100 strangely enough, and I'm wondering if it's the caps. :-?

I'll post a pic of the black caps tomorrow, it's bedtime now and gotta work in the morning. :x
 
thepacifist said:
EDIT :
In the details of that fleabay auction, I'm kinda dumbfounded with a coupl of statements

Long shaft CTS pots that have been impedance balanced for minimum variation between circuits.
I don't get it. The only impedances on pots should be resistive, and that too equal to the specified value and drifting between the mentioned tolerance. This does not make any sense to me.

Assembled using vintage soldering irons
All I can say is - LOL WUT? Those are not Leesona winding machines or something man....they're just soldering irons !!! If you say you're using coupla years old oxidised tips to solder, I say your caps are bust from the heat and you can take 'em up wherever.....

one has some extra drag spots from the manufacturer. Although great effort is made to build consistent control assemblies, parts manufacturers tolerances and handcrafting each unit creates one of a kind products. The result for rock or blues guitarists is that each volume/tone control assy will provide you with a unique sound for a lifetime
I'd suspect B-stock pots...I WOULD NOT prefer each pot to sound different......I don't know how or why it would make sense to anyone for that matter.....

:lol: Good points there! Vintage soldering iron? :roll:
 
thepacifist said:
If you say you're using coupla years old oxidised tips to solder, I say your caps are bust from the heat and you can take 'em up wherever.....

:oops: I better change the tip before I solder any caps then, I think mine is about 5 years old! ...and soldering heavy speaker wire. :eek:
 
I say this every time, and I know it's a big ol' can of worms but...

I use Audionote PIO copper foil caps in my LS200. They even have silver connecting leads - they are designed for audiophiles and are some of the best guitar caps money can buy, costing ?20 each.

They make no discernable difference at all. If you know anything about electronics you'll see that the job of the tone cap is to carry signal to ground - therefore you never hear what passes through the tone cap! The only critical factor is the capacitance value of the cap, which determines how much treble is removed when your tone control hits 0 (low values are brighter). This value can change with age depending on the type of cap you use, and may be one of the reasons vintage caps are so valued.

This is the reason so many companies get away with using cheap caps.

EDIT: obviously the cap type makes a big difference in amp design etc. because you hear the signal that they process! In a guitar circuit you only need to worry about value. IMNSHO.
 
A very logical explanation I'd agree. And in most cases true. But let me go into some details of how a Low-pass RC-filter works.

lowpassfilter0002.jpg


How a capacitor works -:

A capacitor is nothing but two conductive plates separated by a non-conductive di-electric medium. For. e.g, in PIO caps, the paper is the "plate" and the oil is the dielectric. When a DC current is applied across a capacitor, positive charge builds on one plate (or set of plates) and negative charge builds on the other (by the principle of induction). The charge will remain until the capacitor is discharged. When an AC current is applied across the capacitor, it will charge one set of plates positive and the other negative during the part of the cycle when the voltage is positive; when the voltage goes negative in the second half of the cycle, the capacitor will release what it previously charged, and then charge the opposite way

How the filter works -:

You basically have a resistor-capacitor combination with the capacitor in parallel with the load (Vout). So now, the entire signal will pass to ground either through the capacitor or through the load. At lower frequencies, during the positive swing of the input signal, the capacitor has plenty of time to charge to (almost) the input voltage before that charge is "removed" by the negative swing. Hence the entire input voltage is seen at the pin of the capacitor which connects to the input (and to the load as well). Hence, the capacitor pin connected to Vout develops full voltage across it due to the time the capacitor gets to charge, which the load sees.

As we increase the frequency, the capacitor gets less and less time to charge it's positive plate (the one connected to the input and output) and consequently lesser voltage is seen on the load.

This charging and discharging characteristics of the capacitor in relation to the frequency bring about the frequency filtering characteristics - and in this topology, is what enables this scheme to act as a low pass filter. The high-pass operation can be explained similarly.

How all this mind-altering crap relates to tone -:

In a guitar whose pickup signal which contains a wide range of frequencies, It's precisely this charging and discharging characteristic which results in different kind of capacitors having different tones. We can see now that it's not a question of whether the capacitor lies or not in the signal path. It works by, simple speaking, subtracting frequency components of varying amounts (amplitude or voltage) from the input signal, with the amount subtracted depending on it's frequency. Hence it's functioning will affect whatever signal is left for the load to see.

Different materials will have different charging characteristics apart from the time they require to charge (uneven charging, non-standard frequency response etc etc) which will this result in changes to the output signal also.

PS : Electronics experts (including my profs) will take exception to my liberal usage of words like subtract, left over signal....these terms are technically inaccurate but in the context of the discussion, put across the point well.
 
I've always found that the caps do seem to make a difference but I've read and been told many time that they don't...... Can of worms as stated above :wink: I even think that different pot's sound different :eek:

I recently installed a kit from bcs guitars which includes a volume/tone mod which IMHO also makes a useful difference. Below is just a cut and paste from the ebay add.

Dave

_____________________________________________________________

CTS Pots ? The pots are all CTS 500K short/split shaft potentiometers made specifically for Mojotone. These pots are built to last and sound fantastic with a beautiful taper that really lets you dial in those tones your looking for. The shaft is 3/8" in diameter and may require opening up the control holes on your guitar before installation. This is not as hard as it sounds and step by step instructions are available. You can download a copy of the installation instructions from our website to see what is required for installation. www.bcsguitars.com

Mojo Vitamin T Capacitors - One of the keys to vintage sound in Les Pauls is the use of oil filled capacitors such as Bumblebees and Vitamin Q's. These cost a small fortune as far as electronics go and a new Bumblebee repros can cost upwards of $50.00. For our kits we have selected the Mojotone Vitamin T .022uf/600V capacitors, which are known throughout the guitar world as a high quality replacement for those vintage caps to bring you that fat sound. These caps are far superior to the Orange drop tone caps and light years beyond the Ceramic "pancake" and "chicklet" caps that come standard in almost all guitars these days. The Vitamin T's are built with a mineral oil dielectric in a hermetically sealed case and kept to exacting standards. These caps will satisfy your thirst for detail and tone, and not cost you your first born.

Switchcraft switch & jack- The switch and jack are made by switchcraft and, simply put, are the very best you can get. This will give you reliable switching and connections for years to come.

Volume Mods- We hand assemble these component mods here at our shop and they are made up of a 470pf Capacitor and a 220K resistor. This mod keeps your guitars presence (clarity and brightness) as you dial down your volume. No more having to run at full open for the best tone out of your pickups, now you have a choice to back it down a little without sacrificing your presence.

Shielded Cloth Covered Wire - Our kit uses vintage accurate 18 guage stranded wire that is wax coated, cloth covered and shielded with a braided grounding on the exterior. The thick stranded wiring is a great conductor and every run of wire is grounded to eliminate as much external noise as possible.
 
DaveWW said:
These caps are far superior to the Orange drop tone caps and light years beyond the Ceramic "pancake" and "chicklet" caps that come standard in almost all guitars these days.

It doesn't really help any discussion on the merits of various bits of electronic kit when companies make ridiculous claims such as the one above. There isn't a cap in the world that is "light years" ahead of any other cap. At best, there will be a subtle difference. And that will bother some people and not bother most.
 
:lol: Point taken. Your comments dont detract from the kit though which is a good one. However, he is referring to types of cap's here not just different cap's and IMHO there is quite a difference - but the phrase light years is a bit of a stretch.

Like you Mike, I have a very very very limited knowledge of electronics and made the post to draw attention to the the volume/tone mod' which IMHO is a wothwhile one.

Dave
 
DaveWW said:
Like you Mike, I have a very very very limited knowledge of electronics and made the post to draw attention to the the volume/tone mod' which IMHO is a wothwhile one.

Dave

Dave, having seen some of the amp building you've done, you have a much less limited knowledge than I do!
 
Hey thanks guys, some great info here considering I just wanted to know what type of caps were in my LS125F, and instead I get a very informative lesson in electronics as well as how to hunt down the best tone to suite my needs.

Once again thanks and keep any info comming :wink:
 
I put these caps in all my humbucker guitars, i am certain they add a little magic!!
(The workalike ones at the top of the page)

http://www.singlecoil.com/shop.html
 
I think you hear the biggest difference with vintage style amps. Lots of people will change caps and then plug into their POD or high gain rig and expect to hear a big change. You're not going to. But when playing through a decent tube amp I can hear the difference in caps.
 

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