VH-1 Pickups

[Sigmania]

Burny VH-1 ピックアップ セット ビンテージ paf... - ヤフオク!

I see similar ered outline paper labels on Gotoh MKII pickups on Tokais circa 2002-2004.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

IIRC I've seen this label style also on PUs in Grecos. It's still a mystery to me which of the VH-1s are the "bad" ones. There's the aftermarket VH-1 (braided shield cable), then there's the "stock VH-1" with no label on the PU but tiny "VH-1" stickers on the pickup frames, and these "big sticker" Gotoh PUs. My current assumption is that they are the latest style VH-1s because I've seen the "PU frame sticker" variety mostly on Dyna-made Burnys assumed to be late 80s.

 

[Voidoid56]

I made an attempt to figure the VH-1s out maybe 6 or 7 years ago, when my 1987 RLG-90 arrived. A long time ago in terms of MIJ guitar reseach, but the word on the street at that point was that there were three generations of them: the original version that was only sold separately, the second, also with braided wire, that came installed in higher tier guitars (like my RLG-90), which may or may not be identical to gen 1, and then gen 3 with plastic insulation wires. IIRC the pickup frame stickers turn up around 1990-91 or so and the back stickers later than that. If the introduction of the stickers coincides with any changes in the actual pickups I've no idea, though. The latest guitar I've had was a 1994 RLC-70, I can't remember if it had the red-bordered stickers or not, and I don't have access to my photos right now. That wasn't a typical guitar though, being part of a smaller batch built by Fujigen, not Dyna, and basically an Orville with a Burny logo.
Oh well, nothing's ever easy with Burnys. Either.

 

[Sigmania]

I wonder if they track sort of like MKII pickups?

Obviously MKII pickups have been made by many different companies for Tokai.

The MKII pickups with this label appear in the early 2000s. Before that Tokai used pickups with Gotoh embossed or etched on the back plate just before and coincidental with the stickers that are similar to these.

 

[Sigmania]

Various Tokai/GOTOH pickups with similar labels 2002-2006 for comparison.

2002 LS70F
https://mmguitarbar.com/products/20...me-top-electric-guitar-ice-tea-sunburst-japan



2005
Fitting a 1961 Gibson PAF Humbucker in my Tokai Les Paul



2006
2006 made TOKAI Love Rock LS-85 Lemon Drop Gotoh vintage PAF PU Made in Japan | Reverb

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Oh well, nothing's ever easy with Burnys. Either.

You can say that again!

when my 1987 RLG-90 arrived.[...] also with braided wire, that came installed in higher tier guitars (like my RLG-90)

That's very interesting! I've never seen a verifiable, genuine set of braided wire VH-1s and I had doubts on this unspecified RLG - but it's a Dyna-made RLG allegedly equipped with these VH1s:

So if that's not your guitar it looks like gen 1 style VH1s made it into a few production guitars? There's a little twist though, this RLG-90 could be equipped with L8001s (also braided wire but both wire duct holes on the adjustable pole screw side, left side for the neck and right side for the bridge PU). This is a set of very tarnished L8001s in an old FLG-90:

IIRC the pickup frame stickers turn up around 1990-91 or so and the back stickers later than that. If the introduction of the stickers coincides with any changes in the actual pickups I've no idea, though.

That's my perception as well. One indication that the big sticker may coincide with changes in the pickups is - again - the duct hole position.

Here's a pair of "frame sticker" VH-1s:



"Red sticker" VH-1:



I'm afraid we'll never really find out until someone in possession of a gauss meter gets hold of a pair of both (or even all 3) varieties and then dissects them all to compare their innards.

The latest guitar I've had was a 1994 RLC-70 [...] That wasn't a typical guitar though, being part of a smaller batch built by Fujigen, not Dyna, and basically an Orville with a Burny logo.

Yeah I've seen a few of those, alas none of them with pics of the control cavity but they have a characteristic long tenon and an assumed mid-ish 90s production year in common.



Not visible on that image but that's "red sticker" VH-1s. Still, one of these VH-1 styles are hated and I'd really be curious why that is and which ones they are underneath all the hype.

 

[Voidoid56]

That's very interesting! I've never seen a verifiable, genuine set of braided wire VH-1s and I had doubts on this unspecified RLG - but it's a Dyna-made RLG allegedly equipped with these VH1s:

Here's my 1987 RLG-90 '59 CH (ain't she pretty?)


"90" in what looks like grease crayon in the neck pickup cavity and short tenon neck attachment.



The "wavy-X" Dyna rout. The visible pot codes are July 1987.



Neck pickup.



And bridge pickup.



So, basically the same as the later plastic-insulation VH-1s, only with braided wires.

Yeah I've seen a few of those, alas none of them with pics of the control cavity but they have a characteristic long tenon and an assumed mid-ish 90s production year in common.

Looking through my photos, I found that the Fujigen RLC-70 I was talking about was actually a 1991. That surprised me, because I also had them closer to the mid-90's. But there you go.



No fret nibs, long tenon.



Visible pot codes are June and July 1991.



Frame stickers.


Pickups look like standard VH-1s of the period to me? No stickers.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Thanks for getting the pics!

Here's my 1987 RLG-90 '59 CH (ain't she pretty?)

Yes she is! Looks mint, fret nibs still there...mmmm.

So, basically the same as the later plastic-insulation VH-1s, only with braided wires.

Interesting. That may or may not confirm my vague suspicions about the PUs in the "unspecified" RLG I posted above. If I may ask, why do you think the plastic wire VH-1s came later?

 

[Freebird]

Too bad that’s a veneer and not a solid top.

 

[Chris_P]

Visible pot codes are June and July 1991.

Hi Void,
I'm not an expert, so this is more a question than a determination. I thought pots with a wide line spacing are from the 70 to mid 80s. So I would date these to 1981 instead of 1991. The line spacing is much smaller at your 1987 RLG-90, matching to what I've seen so far (small line spacing from ~1987 to ~1992) . Also I found, which would again point to early 80s:

Using the pot date I can generally say that all Burny LPs with diagonal wire drilling (wire comes out on the left hand corner of the neck pup cavity) are built from 1982 to around 1985.

From this thread:
https://www.tokaiforum.com/threads/how-to-date-your-burny.17503/

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Sorry if I cut in here (since you addressed Voidoid) but both theories (pot stamping width and diagonal wire channel) are kind of rendered "in need of a review" by this page alone. Why?

1. The RLG is - with the caution needed to assume these things - assumed to be made by Dyna as shown by the quite characteristic control cavity shape. Since the Dyna control cavities always show up together with the 2nd half of the 80s changes to Burnys, this is challenging the "narrow pot stamping" theory a bit.

2a. The RLC is a "lighting bolt" RLC which show up first in '87 (or thereabouts). Most of them were made by Dyna too and the rare variety with the long tenon and the "new" Fujigen control cavity luckily has the right pots to even try dating them more precisely and that brings them clearly into the 90s.

2b. That RLC has a diagonal wire channel routing, but it just can't be from 1982-1985.
Not saying that the general notion doesn't have merit but whatever you read about these things today is prone to get disproved by some new detail tomorrow, Jacco has constantly improved and then shared his insights like many of us and may or may not have posted a different or more precise assessment later. Unfortunately, getting the debris of all those old threads spread over n forums into chronological order to find the latest state of knowledge made back then, with all the pics and therefore context meanwhile missing probably means we (more or less) may have to start from scratch trying to line up these things. Just like Sigmania tries to do for Tokais now every day. BTW, where is Jacco anyway?

Besides - IMO using Japanese pots to ID anything is still a rather shaky affair. The pots in the RLC and the RLG above may look like they are from the same manufacturer, right? Actually it seems the same style of pot cover (with that square-ish notch opposite the terminals) was used by multiple, if not most pot makers, only distinguishable by the marking style and (very rarely, almost never in guitars) a company logo.

 

[Voidoid56]

In no way do I feel like you "cut in", Homer.

Re: the RLC: The "lightning" diamond inlay on the headstocks of LP Custom copies puts this one pretty solidly at 1989 or later, since that's the first year the design shows up in catalog pics. Other brands (notably Greco) launched next year's product range and attendant catalog late in the autumn, and assuming that Fernandes/Burny did the same (which seems likely), I assume that they were made this way from Nov-Dec 1988 or so. The "winged" truss rod cover was introduced at the same time and is a good indication that a Standard-style LP or SG is 1989 or later, but being a replaceable part, it's of course a lot less reliable tell.
As for the position of the pup cable channels, I haven't really studied that feature, tbh. But I think it's good to remember that this particular guitar is a bit of an outlier, from a fairly rare Fujigen batch at a time when Dyna Gakki guitars were the norm. Afaik, we haven't really been aware of these that long?

Re: pot codes: I'd say that the interpretations are theories in the classic empirical sense: a hypothesis that has held water pretty consistently over time and so is assumed to be true... until something crops up to say that it's clearly not.
A bit like gravity, in a way. Possibly not quite as robust, but still.
Being subcontractor parts, they turn up in guitars from several brands, some of which have semi-plaintext month-year serials and/or date stamps, sometimes down to the day of production. This makes it possible to assume that two digits on a pot cover might just be the month and the final digit of the year. Seems like one logical way of marking mass-production products for QC tracking, right? Than you check the assumption against other datable guitars, and if the assumption still works and keeps working, you can a) use the pot codes to tentatively date otherwise undated guitars and b) as a basis for interpretation of pot codes in other formats from other manufacturers... and start another round of assumptions and checks. Until the whole house of cards falls down in the light of new evidence.
I mean, real proof in the strictest sense could still turn up, in the form verifiable contemporary documents from the manufacturers, detailing the marking system used. But I kind of doubt it will, tbh.
Incidently: The coded pots are one thing, but what about the types with just the Ohm number and log/lin markings? How did their manufacturers track the production quality? Well, there are other methods. One summer in junior high, I worked in the QC dept at a local ball bearing factory. Their system relied on marking the metal crates the parts and bearings where being moved around the factory in, not the parts or products themselves. I guess you could do the same with with potentiometers?
And... I'm off into the speculation rabbit hole. Seeya!

Re: pot covers: Yeah, most (possibly all?) have the notch opposite the solder lugs, which is for cleaning/lubrication. The thing is, they're not the same size in different pots. A pretty small difference, but lord knows I've spent enough time trying to fit the applicator tube of electronics cleaner cans into them. It fits perfectly into some, others are narrower, so I have to angle the tube (with messy result) to get the stuff into the pot. Also, some have paint markings (in what looks a lot like nail varnish) , some are plain.
Sure, the covers may have come from subcontractors to the subcontractors, but if so, my guess it that there were several of them. They differ in shape, some have rounded edges, others are flatter and there might be differences in how the recess above the lug plate were done as well... all of which kind of gives me a headache just thinking about...

And I absolutely agree with Homer that the mass of unsorted info contained within this forum is a real problem. It's crucial to always look at the date of posting when searching for info. What was true a dozen or more years ago might not hold water anymore. In no way necessarily due to sloppy research, it's just that we have a much larger dataset these days, what with all the instruments coming in from Japanese online auctions these days (I'm contributing like 2-3 per month myself... which is kind of scary to write...), which also brings a lot more deviations to light. Also, it's becoming plain that guitars exported new to the West back in the day (which a lot of older research is based on) are not always the same as the stuff that stayed at home. Another factor is that translation apps have made it easy for anyone to puzzle out what Japanese-language catalogs have to say about specs etc.

So it's an ongoing process. Can't wait for the next theory to be disproven.

 

[J.E.M.]

Here's the first gen VH1's from my mid 80's RLG90 (with pots that date 1984)

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I guess you could do the same with with potentiometers?
And... I'm off into the speculation rabbit hole. Seeya!

That's a good explanation/speculation. I seems that (unlike US pot makers) this was the norm for Japanese pots, at least the ones we find in guitars. The only Japanese (guitar) pots I've seen from that era with some kind of production code so far are the ones with the 2-digit +'K' date code (unknown manufacturer), sometimes in conjunction with the "504042" and "504047" codes (apparently just an internal production code, one is volume, the other tone pots) and quite recently a high-end Tokai with Matsushita pots with a 3-digit number that may or may not be a date code.

Sure, the covers may have come from subcontractors to the subcontractors, but if so, my guess it that there were several of them.

Quite likely, and one of them could have used a narrower stamp bundle than the other... well, speculation land. The point is, the only safe thing we have is the 2-digit +'K' date code, which was a lucky find (by Jacco!).

As for the position of the pup cable channels, I haven't really studied that feature, tbh. But I think it's good to remember that this particular guitar is a bit of an outlier,

If you look at the pic of the black RLC with the long tenon I posted above you'll notice that it has the wires entering the neck PU cavity at the other (treble) side, so likely a straight routed channel. The PU cavity routing style and the tenon look like Fujigen too, that's why I would've loved to see a pic of the control cavity. That's just the way this funny game is - every time you think you figured something out, next year you find a pic of an outlier shaking your house of cards.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Here's the first gen VH1's from my mid 80's RLG90 (with pots that date 1984)

Hi J.E.M, I've seen this guitar before here. The pot date is December '83, that indeed makes a 1984 production year likely. However, in the 1984 catalog the RLG-90 PUs are spec'd "VH-2N" and "VH-2B", the 1983 catalog has "L8001N" for both pickups.

Obviously*, the VH-2 would have different pole piece spacing while the L8001 would have ("historically correct") the same spacing if you want to double-check which ones you have. The cable duct hole positions indicate that they are "N" and "B" versions and should have different spacing and then we'd have an example picture (maybe the first!) of VH-2 pickups.

Another way to tell VH-1/L800n and the other PUs apart is probably the number of wires - VH-1 and L8000/8001 would be single-wire, all other PUs have 2 or more "hot" wires (IOW they can be splitted).

The "Kasuga factory" idea has been puzzling me for a while now but that's material for another thread.

* If 'N' and 'B' does not only refer to the DC-resistance. But the Burny PU names and specs should probably be taken with a grain of salt as well, e.g. they list "VH-4" for the 1986 and 1987 RLC-60 (which would be a very hot and very different different pickup from what they usually aim at, maybe they did, maybe it's just a typo, who knows).

 

[J.E.M.]

Hi J.E.M, I've seen this guitar before here. The pot date is December '83, that indeed makes a 1984 production year likely. However, in the 1984 catalog the RLG-90 PUs are spec'd "VH-2N" and "VH-2B", the 1983 catalog has "L8001N" for both pickups.

Obviously*, the VH-2 would have different pole piece spacing while the L8001 would have ("historically correct") the same spacing if you want to double-check which ones you have. The cable duct hole positions indicate that they are "N" and "B" versions and should have different spacing and then we'd have an example picture (maybe the first!) of VH-2 pickups.

Another way to tell VH-1/L800n and the other PUs apart is probably the number of wires - VH-1 and L8000/8001 would be single-wire, all other PUs have 2 or more "hot" wires (IOW they can be splitted).

The "Kasuga factory" idea has been puzzling me for a while now but that's material for another thread.

* If 'N' and 'B' does not only refer to the DC-resistance. But the Burny PU names and specs should probably be taken with a grain of salt as well, e.g. they list "VH-4" for the 1986 and 1987 RLC-60 (which would be a very hot and very different different pickup from what they usually aim at, maybe they did, maybe it's just a typo, who knows).

Hi Homer...that's my post at MLP, they are single wire pickups, I think the thing about pot dates is it's dependant to a degree on inventory levels etc, so it make it difficult to date a guitar with precision... I'll dig it out and measure the pole pieces and get back to you, Jim

 

[J.E.M.]

Hi J.E.M, I've seen this guitar before here. The pot date is December '83, that indeed makes a 1984 production year likely. However, in the 1984 catalog the RLG-90 PUs are spec'd "VH-2N" and "VH-2B", the 1983 catalog has "L8001N" for both pickups.

Obviously*, the VH-2 would have different pole piece spacing while the L8001 would have ("historically correct") the same spacing if you want to double-check which ones you have. The cable duct hole positions indicate that they are "N" and "B" versions and should have different spacing and then we'd have an example picture (maybe the first!) of VH-2 pickups.

Another way to tell VH-1/L800n and the other PUs apart is probably the number of wires - VH-1 and L8000/8001 would be single-wire, all other PUs have 2 or more "hot" wires (IOW they can be splitted).

The "Kasuga factory" idea has been puzzling me for a while now but that's material for another thread.

* If 'N' and 'B' does not only refer to the DC-resistance. But the Burny PU names and specs should probably be taken with a grain of salt as well, e.g. they list "VH-4" for the 1986 and 1987 RLC-60 (which would be a very hot and very different different pickup from what they usually aim at, maybe they did, maybe it's just a typo, who knows).

I got a chance to dig this guitar out and measure it;

The neck polepieces measure 0.371" (9.42mm) center to centre - 1.855" (47.1mm) overall
The bridge polepieces measure 0.390" (9.90mm) center to centre - 1.953" (49.5mm) overall